I have a Cadillac engine with a turbo 350 tranny with a wilcap adaptor and it takes a Mopar starter.I don't have any choke and if I don't give it a couple pumps the engine will start and then shutdown,so I have to remember to pump the gas a couple times. Today,I only pumped once and it started momentarily then shut off,BUT the starter was still running--not engaged to the flywheel,just starter spinning. I had to disconnect the battery to get it to stop. Needless to say,I am going to install a battery kill switch. Anyhow I connected the battery and then everything was back to normal,and the car started and no starter run-on. Any idea what caused that to happen? I don't want to burn up the starter. I run lakes style exhaust and if the engine is running I probably wouldn't even hear the starter if it was spinning (not engaged to flywheel)--really stumped on this one. I'm beginning to wonder if its spinning all the time,drove about 10 miles today and starter was pretty hot when I got home???
I'm thinking you have a starter relay or switch hanging up that continues to supply starter with power. The large wire to the starter is battery hot, and the small wire energizes the starter. Once the key is moved from the start position, the power is suppose to be removed from the starter's small wire and the starter stops turning. Its also possible the solonoid on the starter itself is hanging up, which is part of the starter and the starter would have to be disassembled to check. "Rebuilt" starters available these days are not really rebuilt at all, they have the minimum done to make them work and are boxed and sent back out to the poor customer. Back in the day when I was racing, I used a Ford starter relay and connected both starter wires to the Ford starter relay's switch activated starter post. Then the only time there was battery voltage to the starter was when the starter was activated. Gene
So,once the car is running there should be no power to the small wire--is that correct? I will check that first. I didn't wire this car there are also two 12 ga wires connected to the large terminal along with the battery wire. I had to go to the trunk ,open the battery box,find a wrench to disconnect the battery,that is why I'm putting a battery kill switch in----does it matter if it is installed in the + or -wire? As far as the Ford solenoid,Do a lot of guys with Mopars use that set-up? Is this a common problem with Mopar starters? Thanks
I can see the bonus of not having the main wire hot all the time. I have had one hit the exhaust manifold and short out. However, I wouldn't say most Mopar guys are going to add an additional part (especially a ford one) to the system. It is another possible point of failure. There is already a solenoid on the mopar starter, if something goes bad, its another thing to work out. If it happens again you should be able to pull the thin wire off the relay and see if it stops. Then check for power at the input from your ignition switch. If its hot there its the switch if its not its the relay.
OK, went in garage and tried to start car and selonoid was just clicking tried couple times and it fired up. Shut it down and starter was spinning away forgot to take small wire off,(got confused) but had a test light already connected to a ground and put it on small terminal and there was juice there. Ignition switch was off----I'm thinking maybe bad ignition switch???? Talked to previous owner and he had same problem several times,its had 3 or 4 starters in last 3 years So IS IT THE IGNITION SWITCH?????
Mopar starters require a external starter relay..... you can't run a hot wire to the start or they will stay engaged...
don't see any relay---anyone have a diagrahm as to how these Mopar starters are supposed to be wired----would really appreciate it Thanks Did it again a little while ago---starter just spinning,selonoid not engaged--took small wire off and it kept spinning untill I took batt cable off----starter is probably fried,but want to know howto hook up with relay---and what kind of relay---I have a couple 30 amp ones,like for elec fan around don't know if that would do it or not---have batt wire and two 12 gage wires on big terminal on starter
Here's a pretty clear diagram of a stock ignition relay setup.. Hot linked off a a google search. The purple box is a stock mopar ignition relay. It makes sure you get the juice to the solenoid side of the coil without cooking things. It also keeps things separated. You can also easily pull the spade connector off the small starter pin put a flat screwdriver in it and jump the starter from under the hood with the key on to allow all kinds of trouble shooting of starting issues
Wow,I don't have half of that stuff no resister-no ecu and it shows 2 hot wires from battery---are they both heavy cable?
Since you do not have the rest of the mopar ignition system the solution posted of just using a solenoid to both may be the easiest way in your case. The original relay and variants of it where used on mopars for decades. The reason for the pink line dein rgw BAL pin on the relay is to give more juice to the electronic ignition during startup, it will effectively skip the resistor while the starter is turning getting more power to the coil during that time.
the one to the the bolt is very heavy, and the one to the small switch is heavier gauge but not like the ones that normally run a starter. If you run the ford style solenoid you could just run one large wire down, and connect the big bolt to the small one with a jumper something about 1/4 the size of the heavy wire (still bigger than your ignition wire but smaller than a main battery line).
Since nothing else on yours is mopar, I'd put in a ford style solenoid instead of the relays like 50dodge4x4 mentioned, run a heavy line to the starter from the output side of the solenoid and jumper to the smaller one from that with a reasonably heavy wire. This way you will not need the relay and you will not have a constant hot wire to your starter. It will be cleaner and less chance of failures.
I'm starting to wonder about a couple other variables on your system. depending how you system is switched you need to make sure that you are giving power to the coil/ignition system during starting, but that it can not back feed to the starter off the coil once it starts. There are two big pins and two small on the ford solenoid. One small goes to your key, the other powers your coil/ignition system during startup and prevents the coil from backfeeding the starter.
I'm confused--by ford starter relay,do you mean a ford thing with two large posts and 2 small posts on it? If so Then battery would go to one big post and other big post would go to starter Then What other connections do I make (or is there only 1 small post?) I forget
so the wire that goes from coil to ignition switch would be moved to the ford selonoid???and what do I do with the small wire that is on the Mopar selonoid now?
Are there any timing (not ignition timing) problems doing it like this with the starter motor spinning before the starting gear is thrown? I was thinking about doing it like this only by just jumpering the terminals at the starter. This was just what I was searching for, because the thought has been in the back of my head. Sometimes I just love the HAMB. Back in the day when I was racing, I used a Ford starter relay and connected both starter wires to the Ford starter relay's switch activated starter post. Then the only time there was battery voltage to the starter was when the starter was activated. Gene[/QUOTE]
I wish I could spend a little time with your system and a volt meter/light. Not all ignition switches work the same, that's why the mopar on has that relay in it. The relay powers the coil, and the small pin of the starter in the start position. If your ignition switch has a dedicated wire that powers the coil/ignition on start AND run, then it will work different than what I was thinking. So first question how does you ignition switch power the coil? A single wire from the switch or something more involved?
A relay is typically used to keep higher currents out of the passenger compartment and also for less voltage drop getting juice to the device, in this case a starter. A relay only closes (or is some cases opens) contacts. A solenoid does more mechanical work. Think of your power door looks, they use solenoids. For the mopar starter the solenoid that is part of the starter is actually a relay too, because not only does the solenoid throw the starter gear, it makes up contacts that supply voltage to the starter motor. That's my take for what it is worth. Hope it helps. P.S. I just became a grenade inspector - cool.
Thanks Merc beat me to the punch on the solenoid part. When the solenoid built into the starter is bad you will get a Wiiiiiirrrrrrrr all spin no kick.
I believe its just a single wire --in fact,just last week I cut it and ran it thru a hidden toggle for theft deterrent BUT where it connects to the ignition switch there is also another wire on that terminal. The wires are all taped very tight and neat---hard to tell what is what--it is a highyway 15 harness and everything works fine (except starter)
That looks simple enough Thanks Gary Are the small posts on the relay marked in any way? Which one does the wire go on?
This lovely picture tells the story. 30 years ago, the "Ford starter solenoid relay" was the correct term. These days, solenoids and relays are different, back then, relays were starter solenoids. I used the Ford part because they had large bolt on terminals and were pretty trouble free. They were also easy to jump if the need ever came up we needed to crank the engine without turning on the ign. For the record, I still use the Ford solenoid over the Mopar one if I'm wiring my ride from scratch. Connect the battery + to the starter solenoid + post. Connect the other large solenoid post to the large wire going to the starter. The small wire (10 gauge) from the start terminal on the key goes to one small post of the Ford solenoid. On the starter, connect the big post and the small post together with a jumper wire (10 gauge) or a small piece of at least 20 gauge sheet metal with holes drilled. Be sure the jumper wire or the sheet metal connecter can not ground out or melt. If you need an ignition system resister bypass, you may connect the other small post on the solenoid to the ignition coil. That will give you full battery power to the ignition system only at start up. To fire the ignition after cranking the engine, a separate switch is needed for the ignition. Hope this clears things up a little. Gene
Well guys,I want to thank you for all the good info. I put in a battery kill switch (which I was planning on doing someday anyhow) then from there a Ford Relay,connected the small & big terminal on the starter with # 10 wire ,ran new #4 cables from kill switch to relay and to starter,and everything seems fine---starts right up and when running no juice at starter,or at small terminal on relay. So I'm hoping everything is OK now. I think my old starter,although only 11 months old had a short in it and it was always turning when the car was running,although not engaged to the flywheel? Is that possible. The previous owner had put 4 starters in in 3 years all under warranty---they came from Autozone and believe it or not they gave me one free yesterday after I gave them a sob story! Thanks again If there is anything else I should check,let me know Gary
If those Auto Zone starters are anything like they used to be, good luck, your going to need it. I ended up pitching one after 4 or 5 replacements, and put a good used one on that lasted far longer then the "rebuilt" Auto Zone starter and all its replacements. That was 10 years ago and I have not bought much of anything from AZ since, spent a lot of time replacing many different AZ parts all under warranty. Continuing to have to replace the same parts over and over gets old pretty fast. I'm happy you got your problem solved. Gene
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