After filling up my tank for the first I broke out in tears. Petrol is very expensive in The Netherlands. I decided to never fill up my tank again and to have car converted to run on LPG which costs a third of the price of regular petrol. LPG or Liquefied petroleum gas (also called LP Gas and autogas) is a mixture of hydrocarbon gases (propane 60% & butane 40%) used as a fuel in heating appliances and vehicles. I believe it's used in the US mostly for city buses and big rigs. There were so many rules and restrictions I decided to have the installation done by a professional. The timing had to be adjusted (needs to be retarded for LPG). We also installed a Pertronix Ignitor and Flamethrower coil. We also had to use colder spark plugs because LPG burns at a higher temperature than petrol does. It also burns much cleaner. It will actually 'clean' carbon deposits in cylinder heads and the oil takes a lot longer to blacken. On the downside mpg drops slightly but I haven't been able to tell the difference. This is the most noticeable change under the hood. It serves to evaporate the pressurized LPG using heat from the cooling system. Not pretty to look at but nothing permanent either (should petrol prices magically drop). Most American classics here in Holland run on LPG. The IMPCO installation is probably most used for this. However, these won't fit my Continental because the hood won't be able to close. So we opted for this (very old school) ring that sits in the air filter on top of the carb. This way I get to keep my air filter & won't have to cut into the frame of the hood. Some material still had to be removed from the carb and the ring had to be changed in some respects also. Two 55 litre LPG tanks in the trunk: The LPG system has been maintenance free so far. The car starts up immediately, even after six winter months of storage. On the high way doing 60 the MPG is just under 17. In a residential area mpg drops to around 8.2 There are so many speed bumps, roundabouts and traffic lights in Holland you won't believe it. Now of course my '64 didn't come with an LPG system installed. It cost me $1500 euros or $2198.40 to have it installed. Still, I break even after 12.95 fill ups. In case you're wondering; a car that runs on LPG has a more expensive road tax. LPG is therefore economically interesting if you drive 12500 miles or more a year. Cars over 25 years are exempt of road tax. Cheers, Reijer
LPG has fewer BTU's than gasoline, hence the loss in mileage and power. But LPG also has a much higher octane rating than regular unleaded gasoline - upwards of a 100 - 104 octane, - so you can substantially increase the engine's compression ratio to regain much of the lost power and mileage. One question - why would the Netherlands impose a higher road tax on LPG conversions?? It would seem that they would and should want to encourage the use of LPG instead of discouraging it! Mart3406 =================
Here in Australia LPG is very common on both Classics and late models (these can even come new dedicated LPG) and the Government have been refunding most of the cost of the installation to LPG to make them look like they care about the enviroment as it has little emissions. My wifes Model A Roadster runs a V-6 Buick with LPG fitted (can't tell from outside) and it runs sweet , we can do Valla (3200kms approx ) for about $270-280AUS from Melbourne , my coupe would be $1000++++++++++++++ on Petrol (probably a little more fun on the gas pedal though) cad . P.S. by the way , installation looks good and boot space is ample on the Linclon
I had no idea. Really cool information. Glad it is working well. I bet that Lincoln gets the chics over there.
Cad, you can order cars fitted with LPG here too. But I believe it's becoming less easy to do so because of increasingly complicated injection system electronics. QUOTE=390cad;5742200] P.S. by the way , installation looks good and boot space is ample on the Linclon[/QUOTE] Thanks! I'm in the process of restoring the trunk (keeping the '64 original/restoring to original as much as I can). I'm gong to install a factory correct kit from Jim Wallace/Leather Restorations. His kit looks very nicely put together and finished. The materials used look good, the stitching is good etc. He was also good to deal with via e-mail. Shipping to Holland wasn't bad ($70 I think). He also included a few yards of extra trunk liner material. I'm going to use that to hide the two LPG tanks. I'll first fabricate a housing out of MDF & bendy plywood that looks like it could be part of an original trunk, and cover it with the liner material. A previous owner removed the original grey trunk liner material and installed a home-made kit that's the same colour as the interiour. I didn't like it... it fit poorly and there were a lot of rusty stains. There were also three types of sound proofing material glued everywhere. This looked even worse and I suspected it of trapping moisture. Knowing that sixties trunk spaces in general aren't ventilated - and that sixties Continentals trunk spaces and lids are known for rust issues in particular - I decided to pull everything and see what I find.... I lucked out: only surface rust. Cheers, Reijer
Both mine are dedicated LPG, 235 and 261 Chev. Cost usually averages out at $10 an hour. Good rule of thumb. Six hour drive from here to Sydney (350miles) cost $55 Cad, see you in Bright ? Cheers Rod
Most Dutch people react very differently to classic (American) cars than Americans and Canadians do. They either ignore you - which can't be easy - or look away as soon as you see them looking. It must be the remnants of our protestant/Calvinistic heritage. Enthusiasts and children of course smile and wave at you, or give you thumbs up. My girlfriend likes the '64 a lot though. She insists it is pink. I insist it is not. She saw & drove it for the first time early this year. She was behind the wheel within half an hour, driving around as if she'd never driven anything else. I even think I heard a little tire squeal as she floored it when the traffic lights turned green. She said it is the most comfortable car she ever drove (which of course it is). Cheers, Reijer She makes this car look even bigger!
I always wanted something running on propane, and then I got one, a 1988 Dodge pickup with a 318. What a dog! 70 MPH tops, and 10 MPG! And almost impossible to find fuel away from home. Then the Gov't hung a big road tax on automotive propane, so I chucked the whole setup and went back to FI, and then to a carb. The 4 barrel got 25 MPG, over twice what the propane did, and half again better than the injection. Ain't modern technology great?!!?
You were the victim of a poorly design system on a far from optimized engine. I am wip on mine. It will have compression, cam and ignition optimized for LPG and should come in around 450 hp. LPG is close to gasoline in cost in the US, but there are various tax strategies. I didn't go this way for economy, but rather the performance potential. Not many 11.5:1 gas motors are street driven and they have to carry their own fuel. I've had numerous posts on LPG, so you could search my activity if you like. I hope to fire mine by spring. (for the third year in a row)
LOL, no efi on this one. I will be mounting a pair of Impco 425 mixers using Holley baseplates on a Performer RPM Air-Gap dual quad intake. That should deliver up to 940 cfm (as if I need that much). The cool part is that they are vacuum operated, so you can't over carb them to cause a bog on snapping the throttle open, though throttle response could suffer in extreme scenarios. My cam selection was based on lobe separation angle to maximize cylinder pressure. I want every bit of compression I can get. My arrangement maths out at 11.5, so maybe I will see a real worl 11.2 compressin ratio. Gaseous fuels won't fall out of suspension like liquids, so I could run a tunnel ram, but I figure throttle response will still lag, so i stayed with a big dual plane. GMC Bubba did my distributor, a restored single point GM "window" type dizzy converted to a magnetic pickup for an MSD box. I'll use that to trigger a PC programmable MSD 6AL so that I can fully control the timing curve. As mentioned before, LPG like less advance. I want complete freedom to adjust the curve to anything needed. I guess the biggest issue I'll face will be my learning curve on tuning the thing.
We had those Impco set-ups at work on S-10's. they sucked, smelled and no one wanted to crawl underneath to check the propane level. all are gone now and cng has come it.....damn gubment won't let us get diesel.
Not many people know this, but the "fuel cone" built into the 425 diaphragm assembly is a lot like a metering rod in a carb. There are a few different ones available. I never liked the "updraft" fuel delivery in the 425, but there's not much you can do about it with the vacuum operated metering... Years ago I made my living doing propane conversions and rebuilds, including some high performance stuff. I've always thought that the weak throttle response might be helped by going to a "progressive" mechanical secondary throttle plate (like a Carter AFB), but the only ones I've ever worked on with that sort of carb were dual-fuel, and nothing will help THAT... Another interesting thing that I never gave much thought to is Ford engines seem to respond better to propane (better throttle response) than Chevies. Just an observation, couldn't explain it if you had a gun to my head...
Dumb question... how do your figure MPG? Is LPG sold in "gallons?" Other than for my BBQ, I have no experience with the stuff. Gary
Reijer - looks good & clean under the hood. I was really looking into this conversion a while ago. Isn't the octane closer to 130 for LPG? Can this conversion handle a turbo or supercharger?
You buy it at the pump per gallon (or litre) as you would petrol or diesel. Check out the link I posted above for the specifics. Thanks! Not sure the octane rating goes that high. Never looked into it to be honoust. It seems LPG and turbochargers can peacefully coexcist: http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Turbo.html At first glance there's lots of info on the Google. cheers, Reijer
Unfortunately I suddenly HAD to buy a 4x4 truck last year. Not much money on hand and an immediate necessity. The only one I could afford was an 84 GMC 1/2 ton, 305 V8, converted with a Superior/Impco 300a mixer to run on propane. The owner tried to sell it for months, no takers due to the propane only conversion. I got it for $500.00 with a half full tank. After nearly two years of use I still despise it! Low on power, half the bed is full of 100 Gal. fuel tank, often stinks bad enough to get me pulled over by cops. And the fuel cost savings are a MYTH! Propane now cost almost the same as gasoline, $3.50 a gallon. Until gasoline prices went crazy propane was MUCH more expensive, it's been $3.25 - $3.60 for a very long time. But it only gets 8-11 MPG, would probably be 12-16 on real gasoline. Yesterday Mom drove it to a nearby store, then it would not start when she tried to leave. It's been running a bit rough, with an occasional back-fire, so today I towed it home and gave it a full tune-up, including the air filter. Still did not want to start. Tried reading dozens of post, every one of them assumes the vehicle starts before offering any hints on tuning! Experimented with the idle screw until it finally started, adjusted for best idle and it now has more power than it has ever had, almost tolerable, with no load in the bed. Now that it runs again I will play with the timing, might gain another 1/4 HP. Bottom line, I will GIVE this damn conversion to whoever helps me put the truck back on gasoline, I found a set of original fuel tanks to put on it!
If it stinks, you have a leak somewhere, or whoever is filling it is letting the 10% valve blow way too long (over-filling). If it's not running right, it's probably a clogged filter or regulator, or vacuum leak. If that propane system isn't the most trouble-free, reliable setup you have ever had, then there is a tuning problem... I've seen 100s of those systems with over 200,000 miles on them that gave NO trouble whatsoever.
My experience with Propane is mostly with forklifts that have to run inside buildings. Most road vehicles that have been converted once belonged to propane retailers who could fill up at work and were always in range of that supply. In the US there are not many places to buy it on the road. You need to plan your trips around places that sell it. If you run out, you can't just pour a gallon in it. It has to be pumped in under pressure. Not many propane retailers have road service so it requires a tow to a fueling station. Many conversions were done allowing dual fuel usage but, in my experience, anything designed to run on two different fuels usually doesn't run good on either. 20 years ago there was a big push for compressed natural gas [CNG] but not even the local natural gas suppliers use it anymore. It required higher tank pressures than propane. Hydrogen was being touted as the next fuel too but, like everything else, the distribution systems don't exist. City buses can use it because the City can install a storage system. Newer vehicles are fuel injected and cost much more to convert and can't be set up for dual fuel. Manufacturers have no incentive to build them because there is little demand. Enforcement agencies are also checking closer to make sure that road taxes are being paid.
Actually, you can "jump" in 5 (or more) gallons of fuel if you run out...you just need the right adaptor hose. I used to carry one in my Blazer all the time. You hook up a barbeque tank to the fill port on the car tank, open the valve and turn the barbeque tank upside down...then wait. In a few minutes all the liquid fuel will drain into the car tank. I had a bad gauge (LP tanks are notorious for that) and had to use this trick a couple of times. You can get a propane motor fuel tank filled at any station that has a large service tank in the yard. It's true that most propane vehicles are driven locally and fueled at a central location, but I've worked on and filled tanks on all different types of vehicles (including bikes!) from all over the country... By the way, CNG is EVERYWHERE now, and getting bigger all the time. Not sure where you are that they don't use it anymore, but CNG does have worse issues than propane in terms of commercial availability.
And to date has far fewer fill locations, but we have a gazillion gallons of it available right here in the U.S.A. if the NIMBY's do not block it's development. Even the propane fill locations are NOT as common as they appear! MANY locations will NOT fill a vehicle as they are not set up to collect the road tax and do not want to risk the fines. The guy who converted this truck did in fact work for a propane distributor, probably filled if for free and never paid any road tax either. Despite getting this pig to run better than ever, it's still weak compared to gasoline. At least after today's efforts it will run at freeway speeds. A hint for others who may find themselves stranded, a hint never mentioned ANYWHERE on-line! On an IMPCO 300a or similar, if it will not start, back the screw under the 1/2" nut in the center of the mixer OFF until it is loose, turn it IN until it just ceases to wiggle, from there the vehicle will probably at least start, then you can make a finer adjustment. Took me a day to figure this out, even with the "Help" available on-line. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars rebuilding this engine just to "optimize" it for LPG. The whole truck is not worth more than $1K, even on gasoline. CNG is getting a BIG push currently, and those who have no need for decent power or range (Jellybean commuter car drivers) are welcome to it. Dual fuel injection and timing systems are now available, not cheap, but available for those who just have to be "green" and will accept CNG/LPG as a way to appease the "Global Warming" and Eco-Nut cults. CNG and propane make sense for fixed route vehicles, and they are much more practical than electric, but do not work out for me. I'm going to get my financial act together and buy more GASOLINE powered gas guzzlers! Let the cultist and PC drones use propane, the only vehicle I will keep on propane is my antique forklift! I'm in No. Nevada if anyone wants this conversion for "Free", actual price is helping me to put the truck back on gasoline, this does mean getting your hands dirty.
I'm in Eau Claire Wisconsin and the nearest CNG station listed is in Minneapolis and it is the only one listed in the Twin Cities metro area. In Wisconsin, Milwaukee seems to be the only city that has CNG. Lp stations aren't plentiful either. Some of the ones that are around don't fill vehicles because they don't want the tax headaches and the responsibility of checking the age of the tanks. They also don't want to have someone there to fill them. Many places only exchange 20lb tanks if you have one of their tanks. Businesses that have forklifts either have exchange tanks brought in or have a large tank and pump to fill their own tanks.
I strongly suspect that the drivers were so used to tepid performance that the slow downgrade over time went unnoticed. Today's tune-up increased performance beyond anything I ever saw from this truck since getting it, but it's still weak, particularly in top gear.
CNG....lotsa fleet vehicles being converted here in Okla. Several large Gas producers are converting fleets as well as small metro cities and towns. Late model Fuel Injection engines are prime candidates and remain dual fuel. CNG refueling stations are becoming readily available and a home refueling station is available if you have natural gas at home. A real coming trend here in the US.
The taxing entities will have to develop ways to tax alternative fuel users. People with natural gas or propane in their homes could install pumps to fuel a vehicle. Electric vehicles are charged from household power and don't pay road tax either. They use dye in diesel fuel so they can tell if off road fuel has been used in an on road vehicle.
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