Barracuda engine swap (from 273 to what?)

Yea ear plugs.

 

Hi, I'm brother with treadstarter. We just got a contact with a guy that have a cheap 318 that have been newly overlooked and overhauled. The casting number is 4323330318-1. according to http://www.mopar1.us/casting.html its a 85-89 engine, the seller says its a flat tappets (can you tell from the casting number? does the last "1" imply that?)
Is there any diffrece between the flat tappets and the roller tappets that make any of them not fit straight in the -66 cuda? or is it just the internal that is different?
As in the quote below says there are som externally balanced 318. wich ones are that? can you tell from the casting number? and if so is this one internaly or externaly balanced?

My over all question is as you can se will a -85-89 318 with 4323330318-1 casting number fit in a 1966 cuda with stock 833 without any modifications?

 

I have owned a 4-speed 65 Barracuda since 1968; it's had a 340 in it since 1972. A few points:

1. Some 72 340's had forged cranks and were internally balanced; some had cast cranks and were externally balanced. All 73 340's were cast crank, and all cast crank 340's were externally balanced.

2. All 360's are cast crank and all are externally balanced.

3. Older 318's had forged cranks; later were cast. Cast or forged crank, they are internally balanced. I've never heard of an externally balanced 318, but am not that familiar with the later stuff (post-1980) so could be wrong.

4. Your 273 bellhousing and flywheel will bolt up to any 340 and at least any pre-Magnum (91-earlier) 318 or 360. The flywheel would have to be balanced for a 360, though. A 273 would have a 9 or 9.5 inch clutch, which is marginal if you have much horsepower. I used to run a Weber HD pressure plate in mine, but the springs were so stiff it would bend a release finger every couple of years. I swapped to a 10.5 bellhousing and clutch assemble three decades ago. Fits fine except you have to make minor mods to the clutch linkage. Your original tranny will bolt to either bellhousing. I switched to a later trans, but put in the original 65 gearset, which has a 3.09 low gear vs. the 2.66 of the later ones.

5. All Mopar small blocks used a short cast iron water pump through about 1969 or so; later ones use a longer aluminum pump with the lower outlet on the opposite side. Your 273 water pump, timing cover, pulleys, brackets and oil pan will fit all 340's and at least all pre-Magnum 318's. 360's have larger main bearings and so use a different oil pan and timing cover. The long water pump will fit in a 65, but you must move the lower radiator outlet and use the pulleys that go with the long pump. Also, you have room for a fan clutch with the short pump, but not with the long pump.

6. Motor mounts: Use the original 273 mounts and brackets. You will have to add an ear to the passenger side bracket if you're switching to a 340 or 360, and put a couple of washer/spacers in the driver's side bracket; otherwise its a straight bolt-in deal for any pre-Magnum small block. Not sure about Magnum motors, as I haven't dealt with them.

7. Pre-67 Barracuda (and other A body) engine compartments are narrower, so exhaust is a problem. Most say it can't be done, but I have early 340 hi-po exhaust manifolds on my 65. The passenger side is really close to the inner fender; given factory variations, it may not clear every early A body inner fender, but it does mine. On the driver's side, the 340 manifold rubs the housing of the u-joint thingy if you have manual steering. I switched to a power steering column (shorter than manual) and used a Firm Feel adapter to connect the manual box to the PS column, which eliminated any interference.

8. Header selection is limited. TTI and Doug's both make inside the fenderwell headers. I've heard complaints about the fit of the TTI's, but haven't tried them myself. Also Spitfire short tri-Y headers are intermittently available, which reportedly fit very well, albeit w/o the horsepower potential of the full-length 4-tubes.

 

thank you 413coronet for a really god and thorough answer.
I have some follow up questions


I know there are some differences between the heads thru the years. But will the stock 273 exhaust manifold fit on a late 80’s 318? I know it probably won’t be the best option for the performance. As a star just to get the car rolling it would be really god if they did


About the flywheel. We will keep the engine stock at least for a while, so I suppose it will hold up.



Also, for another car. I got the flywheel on the picture when I bought a 833. Do you think it’s for a 360?

 

413 covered it all!
There are differences on the heads over the years, but most will interchange.
You can't use the old 273 intake on the 318, different bolt angles.
You can use the 273 exhaust on the 318, just make sure to plug any AIR injection holes. You can do a search here for more info.
That flywheel sure has some lightenig holes in it! It doesn't look like the cast crank hole pattern though.

 

thanx, verry good whith the exhaust.

I will do some messuring on my flywheel nex tim I'm in the garage to see if it´s the sam amount of iron that have been removed as in the drawing.

I quickly compared th drawing and my photo in a drawing program and it seems like the holes in my are lokated in the right place and the area of the holes seems to be half of the ones in the drawing, so if they are twice as deep it should be fin then I gues....

 

There are 2 styles of cast crank damper/balancer: sorry in advance for the huge pics...


Notice the 'lump' or 'egg shape' above.

The other cast crank style:



and a forged crank style:



.

 

Something just occured to me that hasn't been mentioned and maybe it is irrelevant. The Polly 318 probably is not a bolt in. They were a different creature all together. So a newer 318 than the polly is probably going to be the best bet for this car.

 

the poly would bolt in, but I think it would be tight in the engine compartment and very difficult to hook up exhaust to.

 

Yea but they do look neater. I was of the impresion that the motor mounts were different on then for some reason. They are pretty much a different block all together.

Anyway ohter than I personally like them I would stick with the later version of the 318.

I wish I could land a valient baracuda. I test drove one from a car lot when I was in high school and loved it.

 

Mounts and bell housing surface are the the same on a poly 318 as an LA 318, water pump is the same bolt up, distributor, timing chain, crank and rods too.

That said, a Poly is a heavy mother and would make that little cuda a bit nose heavy (not as much as a big block however).

 

Part of the joy of driving one is that they are nimble, Once you start piling the weight on the nose you loose that nimbility.

[ha a new word, look it up in the world according to the 'beaner]

BTW AJ good information thanks.

 

...I know that you meant to define all of this as the post-62 version of the poly...

.

 

I would go with a 273 Commando with the 4 barrel and leave it looking nice and stock...you know...wrinkle black and aluminum finned valve covers......with some real poop when it needs to pass people. It will bolt right up to the '66 Barracuda.

 

Just remember everyone, the OP is in Sweden, so all these motors probably aren't sitting behind every 3rd repair shop in a hundred miles....

 

Hell you can't find them here.

 

I put a 318 poly in a 66 b,cuda, 4 speed. My bell had to have some work on it due to the dowel pin on pass(right) side USA, was not the same as the 273 ,drilled new hole all ok UNTIL driver side (left) USA exhaust manifold to go on.The stock log type manifold on the poly will have to be notched out for stering shaft.Not real hard even in mid 70s. good hacksaw, drills,grinder and brass in a steel plate.GOOD LUCK.................................YG

 

Hi we have a correct complete 273 for the car and we are shipping a 64 dart wagon over there in the next couple of weeks. we could put the motor in the back and ship it along with the car, just need to get you and the buyer of the car in contact with each other and work out some details, let me know.

 

TTI make an excellent chassis style header and exhaust for the A bodies.

Far better than the fenderwell headers from anyone.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0703_tti_headers/index.html

 

I had a 67 Barracuda vert with a 273 4bbl. Engine needed rebuilding and I had a roller cam swirl head 318 from the late 80s sitting in the corner. I figured I would drop the 318 in temporarily while going thru the 273. Everything was a bolt in until I tried the left side exhaust manifold. The manifold is almost the same as 66 and earlier manifolds so beware of the problem I had. Seems 273 heads have a slight recessed area between the #5 and #7 cylinders below the plugs. This recessed area is needed for clearance on the exhaust manifold. The swirl head 318 didn't have this recess and the manifold would fit at the top of the port but was held out about 1/16" at the bottom. I did grind the head until the manifold fit right and never had any problems with the head. Not sure how thick the heads are in that area so if you do grind here use care. I'm not sure when they quit putting this curved recess in the 273/318 heads but in the 80s it is gone.

 

63 and later poly 318s have the same bell housing pattern as LA motors. I have read but not seen one yet that poly 318, 301, 277 engines 62 and earlier have the same bellhousing pattern as the early hemi. The upper four 3/8" bolt locations are the same in both motors but it is the 7/16" lower bolts that are different. Correct me if my years are wrong. If the bellhousing area is exactly the same as the early hemi on the early polys then an adapter would be required. Also a 904 transmission would not work because the starter location on a 904 is higher than a 727 and the starter would hit the block. I ran into this problem adapting an
A500(904od) transmission in place of a 518(727od) on my 57 341 Desoto hemi. I had the A500 in and the starter would not bolt in so I had to go back to the 518 transmission. I wanted the better first gear ratio the smaller transmissions have.

 

I would say a 318 would be the easiest to find and was a very dependable engine . Owned a few of them and they always outlasted the cars ! A 340 would be the idea engine to get but where you live I don't think the 340's are to be found easily .
Have you considered rebuilding the 273 to keep it numbers matching and original ? If you don't care about that then an engine swap will be the cheapest way to go . The only problem there is you have no idea on the condition and how the last owner(s) took care of that engine .
If you find a good engine , I would take a compression check and look the engine over very carefully for any signs of neglect , oil leaks , newer gaskets and so on . Just remember a running motor is always a better one to look at !
Just some things I would consider if I was looking for a good used motor .

Retro Jim

 

Bolt pattern is the SAME on 318 Poly/318 LA But dowel pin location is not the same. Sorry if the book told you this and ive read it,BUT its not 100% true.Ive got a 66 ply manual that has many misprints.There humans they screw up,as i do and you also.Factory manuals are not a BIBLE,not 100% true. Ive been a Plymouth / Chrysler mech.Been there done that.I have a 273 bell or auto,and a 318 poly with yrs as such needed to make my point.If you got the money based on manuals ill take that the bet.I know mech of Ford /GM Dealers and they tell the same tale,the guy who wrote the manuals NEVER put one together. IM STICKING TO IT...................YG Been there DONE it.

 

there were some 318's that were premium blocks,heavier cylinder walls,that could be punced out to 340 or 360.
i had a 1971 360 that was not externally balanced,72 is when the external balancing started on the 360s.
for the automatics,welding the weights onto the torque convertor to externally balance it was commonplace.i did it a few times myself.

 

how about the 318 or 360 with the overdrive tranny out of a dakota not sure what you need for that type of swap

 

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Aa you said, It's probably harder to fin these engines in sweden, but in the 80s the ammerican vans were quite popular over here so the 318 seems to be quite easy to find and to decent pricing.

I have now found the engine I'm going to use. It's a 318 from the 85-89 period. It have been overhauled and even rebuilt to fit a -66 Dart. which means the older water pump is already sitting on the engine. so I hope it will slide right in our cuda.
The bad thing is that the man I'm buying from bought the engine as it is, and have never as i understand started it him self. So his word only goes as long as the former owners. But he seems like a really straight up guy and even if he never drove the engine he has opened it up a little and says that it seems like a lot of the parts inside are new or renovated. So I think it will work out fine. Because he got a good price of the Dart it came with his selling the engine quite cheep. about 750 dollar for a engine with everything but the ignition cables and oil filter. including a spare block. usually here in sweden you get a really dirty 318 taken straight out a van with no starter, ignition or carburator for that price, so I'm happy.

 

Although rare, the factory did put 440s in this 60's body style Barracuda. A friend of mine had one and from the stories I heard, it was a terror (fast). Yeah, as mentioned before, it is a tight fit, in fact, no room for power steering unit.
Another friend has a '68 and was thinking of swapping out the 340 for a 400. His theory was more torque out of the 400.

 

Cast crank 318's had the weighted flywheel, steel crank didn't.
There are balanced flex plates available that use the non-weighted converter on 360's, but you have a stick so that doesn't help you.
Any balancing shop can make your flywheel work on whatever engine you find.
Back when, I put a Poly 318 in a 'Cuda that had been a 273 car. I used the 273 top end and valve train. The poly pistons required some grinding for valve clearance. It had real high CR, but it went like a raped ape!
You can't go wrong with a 318, probably the best production engine ever built.

 

Beebing, the BB 383 and 440 A bodys were 67-69. Different, wider engine area.
You can stuff a BB in an early, but it's not bolt-in.
For any BB A body info check out http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/techindex.shtml
Better to go with that 318 the OP picked up.
Try to get it running on a stand if possible before dropping it in.
Those early A compartments aren't work friendly if you have issues.

 

You are mistaken, the 360 was an externaly balanced cast crank engine from the start in 1971. You may have thought it was a 360, but it wasn't. I think you are thinking 340, which changed over to externally balanced cast cranks in '72. The early 360 blocks (up to about '74) used the same core as the 340 however and could be bored .070 or .080 over and use cut down 340 .030 or .040 pistons netting 372-374 cubes, essentially a stroker 340.

All LA 318's used the same casting cores, like any high production engine however, some had less core shift and could be taken out maybe .060 if you are lucky, but .040 is pushing it usually. A 340 is .130 larger bore than a 318, so I really don't think so, and a 360 is .090 over a 318, not very likely either.
LA's are, except the early 360 block mentioned, thin wall castings.

Not busting your chops, just trying to make sure everyone has good info here.