Hot Rods Please post detailed pictures of "Failed, 35-36 rear Wishbones"

Like I said, I would very much like to see the pictures,... The way this set up was talked about on here,.. I thought we would have pictures coming out of our ears by now with almost 900 views. I want to see the specific failure, and if the failure people talk about is consistent. Not only in structure, but also in conditions in which they failed

How about it Unkl Ian,... can you find them and re attach them ?,... sure would appreciate it.

 

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yeah..open driveshaft..no torque tube

 

Alex Schieder in Germany bent one on the 1/8th mile drag race in Finsterwalde in Sept 2008 in his 331ci Hemi powered golden T-roadster. The car twitched violently as he shifted but he caught the car and continued down the strip. He runs stronger ladder bars now. The video is on youtube but you can't see anything. You had to have been there. When he came back on the return road you could see the bone twisted down. His hemi does produce a lot of power and he was running special drag tires so was getting good traction.
Ed

 

Thanks Ed, and no disrespect, but Like I said in the first post, I'm not looking for stories or tales,...I really want to see if these reported failures are 35/36 bones, the old PSI set up,... or 1937 and on bones,... and exactly how there failing. I am still looking for pictures of these failures.

 

I started a thread similar when contemplating the rear set up on an A frame. It includes pics of a '40 style radius rod for comparison. The question that keeps coming up is "why did Ford put thinner, less substantial rear bones on later, heavier cars with more hp?"
I found a pair of '36 bones and feel better.
RB

 

Mine's a little tight there too, but they're not even mocked up yet. Not going to slam the car low, may just mount them further inside and heat/bend the spring mounts back to the right angle for parallel spring perch mounts.

 

Just wondering out loud
What has happened to make this such an issue / why care if yours work fine ?

 

I do know that if mine bent or broke, I'd sure as hell take a picture of it. I've seen pictures of hairpin rear radius rods buckling from banzai starts with wide tires but never any 35-36 radius rods.

 

Since the spring mounts to the radius rod ends they must be spaced at the Model A spring mount spacing from eye to eye.

 

I have seen this issue come up from time to time, And while I personally have had no problem with this set up in the past, Its not to say there isn't something to the stories I have read,...

So, to either dismiss it completely, or give it some actual credence, I am looking for some actual proof of this system failing,.. and if it does have a tendency to fail, under what conditions it happened,.. And if there is any consistency in what area "the 1935-36 rear wishbones specifically" allegedly failed.

I still have 4 more pair of these bones, If they really are unsafe as some have alleged,... I would like to see the proof,... before I decide to use them on anything, or sell them to somebody to use.

Its like the old saying "Talk is cheap, it takes money to buy Whiskey"

 

The only pictures I have ever seen of broken bones is By 5Wbomber on his A coupe and and A hamber in england with a bent one. Both are the later style. Sorry not much help I know you are looking for 35-36. I can dig up the threads if you want to see them. I want proof of broken 35-36 too.

 

I don't thing you should have any problems with the strength of the bones as long as they're clean and you have all the other suspension components done correctly. I intentionally went with the later bones for strength, and still broke them. But I don't blame the bones for the damage... it was the release from the torque arm that broke them.

Here's a thread from back when it happened.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293274

 

I have said this before, but I will say it again: Luck is NOT a survival strategy.

This is a simple matter of materials science. Don't guess, take the word of a MME. They are MARGINALLY strong enough. You might get away with it, or you might get killed.

Run a torque arm. Nobody will see it.

 

This is the 1937 and up rear wishbone, that I stated before,.I feel is to weak, in design and structure,... Not the much heavier 35-36 wishbone, That I am asking for "Specific failure picture on"

Guys,... I am not challenging anyone that feels this way,... Once again, I have read a number of reports of this system failing,... I simply want to see proof,... And find out exactly what conditions they failed under ( If they failed at all). And if there was a consistent place or area that they failed in.

Just to make myself clear,... " I am asking ONLY about the 1935-1936 Ford rear wishbones", the ones that have the heavy tube and heavy I beam style forging,.. with the spring hangers as part of the forging.

Please look at the photo below, these are the 1935-1936 ONLY wishbones.

 

You are correct that this is the 37 and up. I guess I failed to state my point. The reason you're having trouble finding pictures, is because when they're set up correctly, they will not break. My point was that mine broke only from the torque arm failure, and using the earlier ones, you should have no problem at all!

 

Got Cha',....

 

It is not a feeling.

Would you take the word of a man who feels that Russian Roulette is safe, because he has been playing his whole life, and hasn't managed to kill himself yet, or the statistician who can confirm that he will be dead soon?

I am going with science.

 

I made my own when I knew I was going to dip into the 11's w/ my Model A Pickup. I ran my split 36 bones up to 12 flat in the 1/4 mile. Knew I needed to up grade to go faster and be safe....I made these and tried to break them....... went 9.57 w/ them..Their are options, I could have made them to look allot closer to the originals if I wanted....Breaking the rear bones is a scary thought !..........Littleman

 

I am impressed once again.....

 

Given the same criteria,.. you should be mortified at the thought of using Split Wishbones or Hairpins on the front of a Hot Rod with Disc brakes,... As I stated before the percentage of weight and breaking is much greater in the front in a deceleration. Then the pressures on the rear during torque or deceleration,...

The fact is, I did talk to a friend of mine that is a metallurgist at a heat treat, that does a lot of work for the aftermarket auto parts business,.. He felt that the quality of this particular forging, the resistance weld used, and the wall thickness of the tubing,.. Along with the structural rigidity of the tapered oval tube,.. made for a very strong situation.

When told of the configuration of front and rear Hairpins made from .156 wall DOM round tubing,... he handed me back the wishbone and said,... use these.

If you have specific data, or pictures of failures, I would like to see them,... I am not trying to be disrespectful here,.. but your "Russian Roulette" reference is really out of place in this discussion.

 

Dave,.... Fantastic work as always !!!

 

All of the front bones I use have DOM inside of them, the only exception is a drilled and sleeved set. Those, I build from near scratch, from better materials. I don't use disc brakes on anything but IFS.

I will see if I can get time on a on some DT equipment and get you the actual numbers to show you.

I am not guessing here. I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from M.I.T., and am a pro ch***is and suspension builder. I really do understand the risks. As I have said, they are JUST strong enough. Overhead is nice. Not having it can be less than nice.

 

what's wrong with split bones, hairpins, and disk brakes?

EDIT: I'll pm to not clutter this thread anymore.

 

Science is PROVEN. The man is asking for proof. He is not asking for a lecture. Stating your belief over and over is neither science, nor proof.
No offense intended as I admire your wanting to keep us all safe. I have a stake in this too, and I'm guessing Harms has seen my pics of my setup 35/36 bones, no torque tube.

 

Cool,... Like I said at the onset, My interest is to find facts on this set up, as my personal experience and the experience of everyone I know that has used this rear suspension set up over a lot of decades has been unquestionably great... ( for us).

However, If I am wrong I would like to see proof,....And as of yet we've had around 1,800 people look at this thread,.. and not one can produce a picture of this failure that is routinely reported in a "hear say" story.

Listen,... I am not out to make enemies here, And I do respect your knowledge and education,.. But I am surrounded in a sea of friends that are automotive engineers, metallurgists, and work at Ford Research and Development,... A couple of which,.. have had this set up on there cars for a very long time.

Looking forward to the data,... I will run it past some of my friends.

 

I don't want to see a single one of you hurt, in any way. That is my only motivation here.

I am working on proof. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Every fiber of my being is infused with the notion that everything must be built with a 4x or 5x safety factor. I know the strength of modern materials of this size and dimension. Old ones, in possibly un-knowable condition, I can't say for sure. Old steel was pretty good, but they did not have the same level of critical controls over the process.

 

Took them to 12 flat with no issues. Enough Said.
Good enough for me and my flatty powered Ford. Glad I saved the pair I got instead of listening to the naysayers. Awsome thread Harm's Way. I think this thread puts another old "wives tale" falsehood to rest.
Did you go blind or grow hair on your palms as a teenager? Me neither. Just because it happened to a brother's wife's sister's cousin doesn't mean **** with out proof.

 

Still waiting on pictures. I used mine with a ford nine and stock spring. I did use tie rods for the ends to hook up to my trans mount plate. I put the rear end nose 7 degrees up and used stiff shocks out back. Its a very solid ride. I was thinking of a torque arm, I guess if I was running a high torque motor I would need it to keep the tires on the floor.

 

Wive's tale IMO. Of course if they were paper thin due to rust or set up poorly, I suppose failure is an option.

 

Didn't the motorcycle chopper builders use them back in the 1960's to build extented front forks?