I have a 392 and would like to run mechanical fuel injection on the street. No blower, just naturally aspirated on pump gas. Is this drivable and what are my choices? Enderle bug/bird catcher Kinsler Hilborn stacks
I like the Hilborn 4 port set up better than the enderle for driveability. direct port injection will be more difficult than running a t ram with the injectors above the plenum. For me, going to run Hiborn 4 ports on a blower for my street deal.
i've ran one on the street for years . 2 7/8" Hilborn stack injection Kinsler nozzles &barrel valve. There is a few basic tricks to run a system like this but it's totally doable.How big is the injector you have and what size motor ?
I have a 392 Hemi with mondello heads. I also have a short runner, large plenum fabricated intake I was going to use an EFI bug catcher. But would like to use mechanical injection instead. Not looking for a daily driver, more of a high end cruise night truck.
I was going to try to help, but my area is stacks. I only have experience with hats on huffers.. good luck. Hope you are successful. These other guys should be a big help.
Lucas is about the only mechanical injection suitable for the street. The lucas timed unit is adaptable too various injection manifolds [crower,hilborn etc] I think kinsler still deal with them
Constant flow(Hilborn-type) fuel injection was originally conceived and developed for engines running at high RPMs and high throttle openings, and that's were it works best. Before Hilborn put constant flow injection on car engines, some airplanes had a type of constant flow throttle body injection. But again, those engines operate at relatively high loads and throttle openings compared to cars, and the injection has/requires manual mixture adjustment. Although you CAN drive a car one the street with constant flow Hilborn/Enderle/Kinsler/ type mechanical injection, by the standards of what most people expect from a street car it's not really "streetable". Even on race cars, Hilborn-type systems are not preferred in road racing and applications where the engine must operate well over a wide RPM range. That's were you see Lucas-type systems, or constant flow systems more sophisticated than Hilborn-type injection. Although numerous manufacturers have used some form of mechanical fuel injection on a road car, none has ever used Hilborn-type injection. While some will tell you that Hilborn-type injection is fine on the street, consider why no manufacturer has done it. There are good reasons why that is so. There hasn't been too many manufacturers of potentially streetable mechanical injection. Lucas was already mentioned, Spica and Bosch also made them. [SIZE=-1]Tecalemit Jackson was a race intended constant flow system with more elaborate/sophisticated controls than Hilborn-type injection. Versions of that system were successfully used on many road race engines. If you insist on running Hilborn-type injection, make sure you understand what it is and is not. Kinsler and at least one other have made Hilborn-type systems that have a a separate idle passage in the throttle bore. If I was going to run this type of injection on the street I would want that feature.[/SIZE]
There is also another thread running called "hilborn help". The problem with the Enderle hat is airflow at part throttle. No matter what, you have a BIG hole you are opening up with those butterflies. And it IS different than big stack injectors that are not fed from the same plenum. Most of your "cruise" driving will be done with the throttle BARELY cracked open. I'd suggest using a cable to one of the progressive "snail" arms used on later EFI setups, and that may not be enough to smooth it out...
You might want to look over the other thread on Hilborns. You are obviously entitled to your opinions about what is, or is not streetable, but there are people out there who know how to modify and set up Hilborns to get the same driveabilty as a carbureted engine. Way too many guys are using the "out-of-the-box" Hilborn as their reference......maybe you should think like hot rodders. Why hasn't anyone made one for a street car?.....it's ancient technolgy with no profit to be made. How many guys would actually buy one even if they could tune it? The EFI injectors are cheap to make......lots of off the shelf parts. As for constant flow injection, Rochester was quite successful with theirs and it was pretty docile. The vast majority of guys attempting to put a Hilborn on the street have insufficient technical knowledge to do so, and end up with a trial-and-error clap-trapped mess.
Hilborn-type injection is simple, but as a result it is also dumb. Hilborn-type injection meters utilizing only two parameters, RPM and throttle opening.... that's it. No matter how much knowledge the person calibrating the system has, that's all there is to work with. To do a decent job the fuel system also needs at least load sensing. I'm not saying you can't drive down the road with Hilborn-type injection. I am saying that on a street car, under the best of circumstances, it is SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to a simple carburetor in pretty much every way except possibly coolness factor. None of that is the real reason it wasn't done on street cars years ago, or today. I explained the reasons and included some explanation and examples. If you re-read what I posted, I said Hilborn-type injection. The Rochester system, and the similar Bosch system, was WAY more sophisticated than Hilborn-type injection. That's why it was ok on a streert car. On the race track or the street, plenty of people have never adequately sorted out their fuel injection system. The can can be said of carburetors. You are entitled to your opinion too, but for better or worse there's no question I am a hot rodder. But, I'm not the kind that believes things will work because I want them too, thinks that the laws of physics don't apply to me, or assumes that someone gets by with something incorrectly that it is a good idea. Things are what they are. Hilborn-type injection is what it is, nothing more or less. Neither of our opinions can change that.
cutaway al just stick with a carb . If you don't have any mfi tuning skills , then let the guys on here that have proven It is a streetable trouble free system give the OP /65STANDARD The tune up he is asking for. Hilborn is dumb? Don't think so not trying to get in a pissing contest but you seem to talk like your reading a text book of not knowing
I am the type of hot rodder who has the engineering knowledge and skills to design and fabricate the necessary modifications and parts to make these things perform correctly. You are asuming we are using the Hilborn as it was designed by Hilborn....far from the truth........just as Hilborn figured out what needed to be done to make it EFI, we have figured out how to make it work as good as a carbureted engine.....no majic, no guessing.......just good engineering.....something foreign to you. Because you feel that cannot be done only shows your lack of technical knowledge. By the way, both Hilborn and Rochester are constant flow port injectors. Rochester uses a plenum for practical purposes....an air cleaner. The only significant difference is the vacuum controlled balance beam to adjust fuel mixture.....not very sophisticated, as you think, but very clever. That effect can be simulated for Hilborn.....but that takes some fundamental engineering knowledge. The other differences are bells and whistles from an engineering standpoint.
i have a thread going as well for HILBORN HELP here. i figured i would get on this one too so i can keep up with everone.
No matter how smart you guys want to think you are, your defense of something inherently inferior for the street it telling. While you can choose to to ignore that and believe as you wish, I haven't heard one coherent, fact-based contradiction to anything I have posted. I get it, yes you can drive around with Hilborn-type injection. Driving around the block, to the grocery store, an occasional car show, is one thing. For a real, drive anywhere, genuine street car, the driver of a Hilborn-type injected car must be willing to tolerate what most people aren't willing to do. I am beginning to repeat things I already posted so that's all from me. Feel free to elaborate on what an ignorant, clueless, unskilled moron I am. I have no problem with people either believing or confirming what I have posted, or taking the word of a "real" hot rodder.
With a reasonably close jet installed, a carb does the thinking for you. Stop sign, top end, anywhere in the useable range, it does the job. Now . . . . , with a fuel injector you can get it so lean it won't run, you can get it so fat it won't run, or anywhere in between. That is the key, you have to tell it what you want done, where you want it done. If you don't understand the different barrel valve spools, and butterfly openings, poppets, and such, you will never be able to make it work on the street. Remember, this guy has an early Chrysler, the shock value of a stack injector on there can be immense.
OK....you can go back your comic books now......you obviously have zero experience with fuel injection......you are probably a great wrench turner, but it ends there.
Will an auto trans make any difference? I mean will the two different loads at idle (in neutral and in drive) affect the air/fuel ratio too much. Will I be able to keep it running as I come to a stop light. Also, is E-85 more forgiving on the street than gasoline?
Not really looking for a streetable car. Just a wicked 392 that will make it out of the garage, drive 1 mile at 30mph down the road, 1 more mile at 60mph, then stop for a timed run. Turn around and make it back to the garage.
Here is a street legal modified coupe/dragster I just finished and have been driving it all over town. Where I live (Utah) there is a lot of altitude change, but it works perfectly. It has a 671 blower and a Hilborn mechanical 4 port with Hilborn 150A fuel pump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZOfvMN230U
I like it. Looks so easy to get in and out of... LOL. I'd say you'd need to be pretty limber because you'd be getting in and out of it often, with the MPG and the small fuel tank. {g} I still like it, because it has some crash protection too, not like with the fiberglassed bodied kit cars which look to be death traps. I didn't see any headlights though. Whatup with that?
Is there any advantage or disadvantage to having your nozzles above or below the butterflies on a stack style injection?
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