1961-63 Pontiac Tempest Four, Opinion?

I'm looking for some feedback on the 195ci Pontiac engine. I've read enough about it to know some of the inherent issues. I know it's heavy, I know it shakes, and I know it's not all that popular. I'm asking those who have had first hand experience with the engine. My plans would be to find and rebuild an intact copy of the powerplant. If you are familiar with the engine I would highly appreciate your response. I'm looking for some insight. Please don't give me a, "boat anchor" response unless you've had a legitimately bad experience with it, I'm legitimately interested. In theory it should be an affordable build if i can find a complete engine.

Thank you.

 

Sure, can tell you most anything you may want to know.

It's half a 389 so upgraded parts, less the intake and crank, are available.

What is your intended useage? street strip? economy? beater?

Are you planning to use it in a transaxle Tempest? or something else?

Once I know what you want to do with it and what you want to put it in, it will be easier to provide answers.

 

My first car was a 61 Tempest 4 cyl. It's very simply 1/2 of a 389 so parts are easy. If I remember right you can even use a 389 dist cap using every other hole. i had to do a valve job around 35k miles. I replaced the fiber timing gear set at that time as a preventitve measure. Because the engine does shake quite a bit, you need to tighten the carb base studs on occassion or it will start to stall on decel. Good mileage, low end torque, super easy to maintain. Sold the car around 80k due to floor rot. Also Grandma had a 63 Tempest sport coupe with the same engine. Held onto it until the late 90's-only had 3 or 4k miles never in rain or snow. Sold it to a guy starting a Pontiac museum I think north of Chicago.

 

Cool choice!

Many GTO performance parts can be used especially the heads. I have seen many Half-8's built with some very surprising horsepower.

 

It was popular in the late 60s to put a 389 in the Tempest using a fabbed up rear axle and 4-speed. Around the time the AF/X class was getting started.

 

I had a 63 tempest convert with the 4 cyl and it was fine for everyday driving.. I know the motor needs to be well cushioned or it will shake like ELVIS......

 

What all do you want to know??? My 61 Tempest with the 4 cyl has been my daily driver for over 14 years & over 355,000 miles.

 

I had one with the SD package.

For the street, the original 625 CFM Carter was TOO BIG. I replaced it with a 400 CFM Carter, and it ran great!

Jon.

 

Wow, I'm glad to know enough of you have experience with the engine. First off I'm a newbie and just looking for an engine to tear down and learn from, for now. I do like oddball things. My dad says they didn't weigh that much less than the V8, and I have plans of building up a beefed up Model T frame. I thought it might make a unique "track T". I understand that it's pretty shaky, and I could design a good set of urethane isolators(subframe and body), but then again the engine would account for a large portion of the curb weight. My thoughts were for a streetable engine, maybe lighten up the rotating assembly and get it balanced. I like the fact that it could potentially have decent fuel economy and a bit of torque, It's just the more I think about the combination of a little car and a shaky engine, it sounds like a dreadful ride. Would this be a fun challenge or a dumb idea?

Thank you.

 

OK, now that we know more about what you want to do with it.

It can be lightened up some with an aluminum head. Any Pontiac V8 head will bolt to this engine. V8 cams will fit but, will not work due to the firing order differences so, you will need a Tempest 4 only cam. Any V8 dist will work too. A V8 header will work and is a good idea. You can either modify your intake , modify a v8 intake, or build one from scratch.
What ever trans you use will require an adaptor as no transmission ever bolted to them. You may also need to relocate the starter depending on the dia of flywheel/flexplate you use.
Keith, who also posted here, and I , have discussed for years the potential of one of these little engines with a 700 or 200 OD trans adapted behind it.
Those cars are very lazy with their 2 speed autos, you can also use a stick.

 

My uncle and then my cousin had a daily driver 62 Tempest 4 for 30+ years. I even put a few miles on it over the years. I'd not hesitate a bit if I had a chance to get one.

 

Didn't Micky Thompson have one in a Front engine drag car for a bit?

 

So how would a BOP(?) manual transmission bolt up, and would there be any ideal combos/preferences for putting it in a model T with vintage rim sizes and tire diameters. I'll also have to remember not to buy an "off the shelf" cam if I do build up one of these engines. Anything else big that won't swap? I can guess the obvious like an intake manifold, and I'm aware the crankshaft is different but I don't know of anything else.

I saw pictures of a "Hemi" headed slant four somewhere, I think that's what you're talking about. I believe Mickey Thompson made the cylinder heads but I don't recall who's dragster it was.

 

Yes, Thompson had a 4cyl Tempest digger and a 2cyl version too. Later, others ran them with one of his HEMI heads.
Thompson ran a V8 Pontiac HEMI in '62,.
I own the only known original running M/T HEMI Pontiac engine. Also have a stash of heads and building a 2nd one for competition at this time.

For using either a manual or auto trans, you would need to fit a custom adaptor and possible relocation of the starter. the move forward gears you use, the better you will like the engine.
For an intake, I would either work on locating one of the 4bbl styles or modify a V8 intake, or build your own.

If you are not after lightening or bigger power, you can keep the '64 and older style head and intake.
Its a great little motor once you can bolt a more modern trans to it.

Hosting 14th annual Pontiac Heaven March 30-1, 2012 Phoenix
www.pontiacheaven.org

 

I had a '63 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans Convertible with a 195 in it for a lot of years. It was a nice car and I really enjoyed it but it was hard to find parts for so I sold it after it sat for a couple of years.

The 195 is a good engine but as others have said, it has some drawbacks such as weight and shaking. In fact, Pontiac had to make special motor mounts to counter the problem. It might be a good idea to grab them with the engine if you go that route. Many station wagons also had 4 barrel carburetors in them.

You might consider a 215 V8 instead. They run a lot smoother and weigh a LOT less because they have aluminum blocks and heads. They came in the same cars and also in Oldsmobiles and Buicks. Try to find one out of a '62 or '63 Buick or Pontiac if you can. You'd still have the cool factor of an unusual, light weight aluminum engine in a small, light car. That combination seems to fit together better in my mind. Low weight = incredible acceleration and cornering. They only weighed about 320 pounds and produced 200 horse power from the factory. If you do some research on them you may decide you like them better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V8_engine#215

Although I've never seen one in person, older Range Rovers also have the 215's in them or some aluminum blocked engine that was based on GM's 215's. I think some of them got as large as 307 cubic inches, if I remember corectly. They wouldn't be as old as GM's so they may not be as worn out. Also, they made quite a few improvements to them over the next 39 years before they stopped making them. Aluminum polishes up real shiny, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_V8_engine

Good luck with your project. Keep us posted. Progress pictures are always fun.

 

I saw pictures of a "Hemi" headed slant four somewhere, I think that's what you're talking about. I believe Mickey Thompson made the cylinder heads but I don't recall who's dragster it was.[/QUOTE]


This is the one your talking about.

 

Aww.... Thank ya very much!

 

Billeekid,,,To give you an idea how well the Tempest 4 cyl can be made to run, check out this video of Nunzi's 62 Tempest. His car is running a Pontiac Tempest 4 cylinder, Pontiac Superduty head, Pontiac Nascar carb with a 4 speed. Make sure the volume is turn'd WAY up!!! This is naturally asperated on race gas. He's running quicker with 4 cylinders than a lot of guy's with a V8!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYkb542laiM

 

Wow!!!! Just imagine how fast it would be with twice as many cylindars!!!!

A 389 would have weighed nearly the same and had twice the horsepower.

I don't mean to minimize the awesomeness of Nunzi or Pontiac's 4 cylinder, but Billeekid is building a car for the steet, probably on a tight budget. He'll have twice the engine at very close to the same cost if he goes with nearly any common V8. Since there's not much of an advantage in weight with this 4 cylinder, why would HE do it?

I liked my slant 4, but I would have LOVED a 389 in my Tempest. The only reason I didn't swap it out was because it ran and I had funner projects that took priority and money.

 

Thats the whole point!!! To do something different!!! Why follow the crowd?? Anyone can toss in a 389/350 into anything. See it done all the time. Be bold, follow the trail less worn!!! Lots can be done to the tempest 4 cylinder with very little money! He is wanting to build a T bucket roadster of some kind. That car will be light enough & with a Tempest 4 cyl, it will haul a$$ & be the only one of its kind at a show!!

 

"A 389 would have weighed nearly the same"

Why would you make a statement like that? since you seem to know what you are talking about, what are the weights of the 2 engines? Is this something you have weighed yourself and really know? Or just something you read somewhere?

I don't mean to minimize the awesomeness of Nunzi or Pontiac's 4 cylinder, but Billeekid is building a car for the steet, probably on a tight budget. He'll have twice the engine at very close to the same cost if he goes with nearly any common V8. Since there's not much of an advantage in weight with this 4 cylinder, why would HE do it?"

Not only will it be unique, it will be better for the street as it will get better mileage, more affordable



The main issue is bolting a transmission to it. That is a one time expense. Once you have done that it will cost less to build than a V8.

I think it is a good choice for an engine option. Imagine that light car with 3-4 forward gears and that little Tempest. Sounds like a real nice combo.

 

International Scout did the same thing. That would really make people scratch their heads and they seemed to run smoother than the Pontiac

 

If you can get ahold of a whole Tempest I believe the whole drive train drops out as an assembly. Engine, driveshaft, transaxle and all.

Why not put the whole shebang in your T bucket? If you think the half a V8 will make them scratch their heads wait till they go around back and see the transmission hanging off the back of the car.

If you use an automatic, the last thing out there is the torque converter. It spins around in the open air behind the trans.

Wild, man, wild.

 

It just occurred to me.. I bet there are lots of Tempest owners out there just aching to junk their powertrain and throw in a 350/350. Or have already done so. There may be a source of a cheap engine and drive assembly.

 

http://www.littleindians.com/

Lot's of good tech stuff on this website about the little Indians. Have one for my T as well; a long ways away though.

 

In 1984 I put one in my sons 48 CJ2 Jeep. He run the wheels off of that Jeep.

Lee

 

i tought about this 20 some years ago,now the wheels are spinning again....

 

I've read enough about the Buick 215, and it has a great power to weigh ratio. My dad told me that the automotive antifreeze of the time would react and dissolve aluminum, especially at running temperatures. I've heard that the Rover engine was virtually identical, but you can't expect any of the Rover hop-up parts to bolt on(metric tolerances?) to the Buick/Olds. I don't want to risk a rotten block or the expense of foreign parts. There's enough people still building and selling Pontiac stuff, that I'll be happy with the uniqueness of the 195. An old engine like the 215 sounds too much like a "hit or miss" ordeal, my dad had actually talked me out of buying a flathead , I guess that would be a good comparison. I think I could fabricate a sheetmetal intake, find some headers, and I'll have an interesting powerplant. I'll start looking around craigslist for a good engine and figure out a transmission solution later.

 

I agree with you and your dad about the 215's corrosion problems. However, the '63 Buick 215's didn't have those problems. They had it sorted out by then. I can't remember exactly what they did, so it would be a good idea to do some research to confirm it. Although these engines are not as popular as a chevy 350, there are still hop-up parts available. Getting a '63 Buick 215 takes a little bit of the "hit or miss" risk out of it. That may or may not be enough to put them back in the running in your mind.

I'm sure you'll enjoy the 195. Overall, they are good engines, in my humble opinion. Their appearance is also strikingly different. I understand their appeal. I just wanted to point out some of the problems/challenges you'll face after living with one for a few years, so that you can go into it with your eyes open.

Swapping an entire Tempest drive line into a T-bucket would be even more unique and cool, as someone else already mentioned. The torque converter on the rear of the transmission spinning in the air for all to see would double the, "Wow, that's different." factor of the slant four - especially on a T bucket. The main hurdle would be finding suspension parts for it.







The car would be very balanced with the engine in the front and the transmission over the rear wheels to aid traction. If your T-bucket is going to have a short wheelbase, the layout will give you some added stability on the highway so it won't be twitchy. It's easier to turn a bowling ball than a barbell. The Tempest's drive train resembles a barbell.

All the slant four Tempests had independent rear suspensions, but the '61's and '62's had swing axles. They tended to tilt the tires and cause the rear end to "stinkbug" (raise in the air) when going around hard corners. It made them loose traction suddenly at the limits of traction, instead of gradually - which is more controllable. It wanted to pole vault over itself. I managed to put a small dent in my rear fender because the traction suddenly disappeared in my '62. It could have been a lot worse but apparently my guardian angel was familiar with the quirky handling.

It may be even more of a problem in a light T-bucket than in the comparatively heavy Tempests. Also, wide rear tires would amplify the problem. You'll probably have to get softer springs for the rear or maybe even rig up a Z-bar. I think you could make it work, but it would be better to get a '63 if you can. All those problems were solved at the factory.

In '63, the rear suspensions had a trailing-arm design similar in layout to the one used on the 1963 Chevrolet Corvette. The axles had U-joints at both ends to allow the wheel to maintain a more constant camber setting throughout its range of travel. This reduced the Tempest's natural tendency to over-steer. Here's a good article on the subject: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1961-1963-pontiac-tempest.htm

Some 63's also came with a 326 V8. It was a 389 block with a shorter crankshaft. The transmissions in those V8 cars were beefed up to handle the extra torque.

It sounds like you've got your mind made up to use the 195. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. I'm sure it will fine. I just wanted to mention some other alternatives. Keep us posted. It sounds like an interesting build!

 

WSDad:
"A 389 would have weighed nearly the same"

applekrate:
Why would you make a statement like that? since you seem to know what you are talking about, what are the weights of the 2 engines?

WSDad:
The slant 4 195 weighs 557 pounds. The V8 389 weighs 650 pounds.

If I did my math right, the 4 cylinder weighs 7/8 as much as the 8 cylinder or only 14% less.

Is this something you have weighed yourself and really know? Or just something you read somewhere?

Yes, I weighed them again this morning on a calibrated scale, 3 times, just to be sure. They weighed exactly same amount that I read they would in the Bible.

I'm guessing you have some conflicting real-world experience? Would you like to educate the rest of us or are you going to keep your experience and knowledge to yourself?

I don't mean to minimize the awesomeness of Nunzi or Pontiac's 4 cylinder, but Billeekid is building a car for the steet, probably on a tight budget. He'll have twice the engine at very close to the same cost if he goes with nearly any common V8. Since there's not much of an advantage in weight with this 4 cylinder, why would HE do it?"

Not only will it be unique, it will be better for the street as it will get better mileage, more affordable

I agree. However, if horsepower and weight, are more important to Billeekid than, uniqueness, mileage and affordability, he might consider a 389 over a 195. If not, then the 195 wins.

However, he might be able to pick up a 326 just as affordably because they are not as well known as the 389s. They are simply destroked 389s. Then the only advantages would be uniqueness and mileage. The uniqueness is offset somewhat by the fact that 99% of the population doesn't drive T-buckets. It's a unique car even with a common engine. I do, however, understand the appeal of the slant 4. It's part of what attracted me to my Tempest.

The main issue is bolting a transmission to it. That is a one time expense.

I think any transmission that bolts to a 389 will bolt to the 195, so it may not be too big of an obstacle to overcome. However, there may be issues with the starter placement. I can't remember. He'd have to research that. I wouldn't rely on my memory for this particular "fact." Yes, that does bring everything else I've said into question. He would do well to research any information from everyone of us.

Once you have done that it will cost less to build than a V8.

It's been my experience that I had to buy 389 parts kits for my tempest slant 4 and then use half of the parts in the kit. That means 8 plug wires, 2 head gaskets, etc. No one sells half kits for the 195's because there are not as many around today as 389s. The only way it would save you money is if you (or a buddy) were building two 195 engines. I rarely experienced any savings in parts due to it being a 4 cylinder as opposed to an 8. That being said, the parts weren't prohibitively expensive. You do have a good point if he has to buy 2 heads. All I'm saying is that two heads are better than one.

I think it is a good choice for an engine option. Imagine that light car with 3-4 forward gears and that little Tempest. Sounds like a real nice combo.

I agree with you. It would be an awesome car.

Now imagine that exact same car with twice the horsepower, weighing only 93 pounds more, with half the uniqueness, and worse gas mileage.

In my mind, the horsepower easily trumps the uniqueness and mileage.

Your mileage may vary (as may your uniqueness).