Projects Track Roadster 16 yrs in the making

By foam I meant heat shield. It may not like parts sitting on it while it's vibrating.

 

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words; I think the situation is more along the lines of having a tiger by the tail.

BuiltFerComfort

The heat shield is a sandwich of three layers, a layer of heavy alum foil, a mat of ceramic fabric and a second layer of heavy alum foil. It's not squishy, and once it's collapsed it will not "spring" back. The literature that came with the heat shield said that it was OK to flatten the material but that it would loose some of its insulation properties (Duh!). If we need to flatten this layer I don't think there will be any problem. When we mocked-up the layers the heat shield did not crush or bind the layers above.

Right you are. There are mounting holes, in the engine block, for the factory valley cover as seen in layer 1. These would be excellent candidates for anchoring some mounting studs or stanchions that would fasten to the aluminum cover plate. Good call.

Brett and I may first try to get the $#%!& engine running and then go back and figure something out. It may be that four threaded rods, some jam nuts and some cap nuts are all we need. Of course we will have to remove the alum plate so Brett can drill some through-holes. We'll see.

In the past I assume that the alum cover plate did not move much because all the fuel and vacuum hoses are fairly stiff; but even a little motion is unacceptable, and will have to be addressed.

Thanks for the wise post.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Where did you get the aluminum-ceramic heat shield material? I have seen a similar product that was made with inconel in place of aluminum but it was very expensive.

 

Buckster,

I'll go back through my records, I don't remember right now. You are correct, the vendor I used sold aluminum, Inconel and stainless steel. The alum product was much cheaper.

More soon.

 

Buckster,

This is where I ordered the heat shield:

http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/p...lds-and-thermal-barriers/inferno-shield/51/21

good luck

 

Thank you. I was wondering if I was going to have to scrounge that material off of the floor pan of a late model car.

 

Charlie,
I wonder if a set of simple spreader bars , (or better yet an X) between the rails would solve the problem? Basically let them push against each other.

Anchoring the upper plate might be helped by using standoff bolts

on studs at the corners of the lower valley plate.
(Oops...read above posts, dummy...LOL)

 

exwestracer,

I had not thought of spreader bars. The “front” of the fuel rails are coupled by an elbow (180degree) fitting so there is no motion possible at one end. But your suggestion just gave me a thought: the input fuel fitting and the return fuel fitting will land next to each other near the firewall. Perhaps Brett can make a small fixture that will tie the two fittings together, as that would stabilize to some extent the “rear” of the two fuel rails.

The standoff bolts and studs would do the trick for the cover plate, I’m sure. That may have to wait till the we confirm that the new electronics have made a significant improvement in engine management.

Thanks for your continued interest and fresh ideas.

charlie

 

Charlie,
I'm not sure I would rely on the fuel lines to stabilize the location of the rails. It would probably work, but the long term effects of vibration on the lines might be a problem.

 

Right, the fuel lines need some flex since the engine moves some.

Eventually the fuel lines need a slightly flexible mount & the throttle cable mount needs to be fastened to the motor, like the throttles (injectors) themselves.

But you are right on getting it running well first, I'm talking about things to do later.

 

Right now the 180 fitting that connects the rails isn't a big issue, because everything is held to the engine with rubber at some point (fuel lines and injector o-rings). IMO, the "better" solution is still to tie the rails themselves together, and not put anymore stress on the fuel lines....just my $.02...

Just keep plugging away at it...one problem at a time, and the next thing you know you've crossed off the last thing on the list and you're enjoying the car.

 

exwestracer,

See my reply to your more recent post below.

BuiltFerComfort

Your point is well taken.

If I understand how a cable works it's that the two ends of the cable housing are "fixed" and act as a tunnel. The cable wire itself is moving inside the "fixed" housing. If I press on the throttle pedal it will pull on the bell crank attached to the bracket that is mounted on the alum plate. So my understanding is that the bracket and alum plate are not being acted upon by depressing the throttle (accelerator) pedal. Is my thinking correct?

Exwestracer,

You are right again. In this regard, I failed to point out, clearly, that the fuel rails are also connected to the underside of the alum plate, via four small machine bolts. Thus, the fuel rails are bolted to the alum plate and joined at the front via the 180 fitting. The fuel rails cannot move with respect to each other at all.

The weird part of all this is that, as you point out, the alum plate is "riding" on the eight injectors (o-rings). However, the alum plate is also located by the stiff (but flexible) fuel lines near the firewall. Further, the alum plate is captured in a space that will not allow any significant side-to-side motion or jiggling, or any fore-and-aft movement. Moreover, the alum plate is completely surrounded by hardware, mainly the Hilborn castings (stacks). Finally, the vacuum plenum is bolted to the alum plate — and the plenum in turn is connected, via nine semi-rigid plastic vacuum tubes, to the old Hilborn fuel bosses. This spider web of vacuum tubes also constrains movement of the alum plate.

As you suggest, this crazy arrangement, but it will have to do for now. Later Brett and I will buy or make some standoff bolts that will properly fasten the alum plate to the top of the engine block.

We will keep chipping away.

Thanks once more for the great feedback and ideas.

charlie

 

Good news, the Dodge Hemi lives.

Last night about 10:00 local time Brett said: "Give it a try".

The D500 started in less than two rotations of the crank. We let it idle for a about 15 seconds. It did not backfire, belch, stumble, pop or....

It's cold today in KC but Brett is coming over this afternoon and we will work on idle and maybe a bit more.

So far so good. This is the first time that the engine has started without priming in a long time. Without even firing the engine Brett was able to detect that the throttle position sensor (TPS) was not functioning properly and made on the spot repairs. We could not have detected this functional error with the old SDS EFI computer. So even before the engine was started the modern Accel CPU has permitted a diagnosis that was impossible using the old system.

We are not out of the woods but this is good news. Hooray!

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Here is how the engine bay appeared when we stated the Hemi last night.

I think the new vacuum plenum looks great especially with the neat old vintage look of the Vertex "mag".

trakrodstr

 

That looks slick Charlie! If you'd mounted the TPS on the back and cobbled in an old "dummy" barrel valve, not many people would be able to tell it's EFI.

 

Hi Charlie - yes that's right. The whole engine vibrates, flexes, and moves with torque (which is quite noticeable if you just rev up a hot motor with rubber motor mounts). So the throttle cable housing and fuel lines and wires that attach to the motor need some flex. The end of the throttle cable housing (motor end) needs to be firmly attached to the motor, in the same way the carbs/injectors are, so pressing the throttle down half way always gives you exactly the same throttle position, regardless of the position of the motor. If the throttle cable bracket is attached to your aluminum plate, and that plate moves at all, your throttle will have some unwanted variability in it. Thus, tie the aluminum plate to the motor via bolts (or something), and all will be well.

 

exwestracer,

We thought of that. I have an old barrel valve. The new vacuum plenum is fairly tall and clearing the plenum with a fake throttle rod was a bit problematic without a major overhaul of the linkage. However, my long term plans [assuming this whole deal works out] would be to redo the linkage so we could add a dummy barrel valve. We both have sneaky minds it seems.

BuiltFerComfort,

Thanks for the explanation. I promise we will put this on the "to do" list. Keep watching from time-to-time and making observations.

charlie

 

Fingers crossed, Charlie. I really want to see the video of the Maserodi flawlessly cruising down the road.

 

Brett came by to do some more engine management tweeking. We were able to get the ignition timing and the distributor dialed in just right.

The good news kind of stops there. We were not getting a meaningful vacuum signal so we inspected all the lines and so forth. Nothing obviously wrong. So we are back to trouble shooting the vacuum circuit. Brett did not have his vacuum gauge with him, so we called it a night.

The obvious possibilities are a faulty manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor, a BAD vacuum leak, or an intake/exhaust valve not closing. With respect to the latter possibility, remember that I changed to a new set of non-adjustable pushrods. Before installation, I checked the length of the new pushrods and the length was what I ordered. I doubt the problem is a overly long pushrod, but we will check the compression to be sure.

Brett has a vacuum pump so we will be able to isolate the vacuum circuit and see if there is a bad leak somewhere.

Two steps forward and one step back.

I have attached one more photo from today to keep the karma on the good side...

Stay tuned.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Thanks Rick, I'm trying to be rational, but of course I want everything to fall into place immediately if not sooner.

How's your Tiger fighter? Any winter plans for your Ford-in-a-Healey?

Stay in touch.

charlie

 

Charlie,

"Sea trials" are completed. I've got some stuff to figure out. I have a pinion seal leak to address as well as some cooling issues I hope I can fix with a radiator shroud. I also have a "squeally" noise to track down that I hope is coming from the front end instead of the hydraulic throwout bearing. But overall, I'm really thrilled with the car.
I don't have to tell you that when your vision starts to come together, it's a great feeling. You're going to get there soon and I'd love to see our roadsters (ok, mine's a convertible) cruising together soon.

 

Charlie,
I have not been keeping up with your build but just opened it now to see you are working on the EFI and like your vacuum collector. Do you happen to be using the vacuum signal to "compensate" the fuel pressure regulator, that is do you have the vacuum line connected to the top side of the regulator, this will vary the fuel pressure based upon the manifold vacuum and this maintains a constant differential press across the injector which gives you closer fuel control.

I also noticed that you are using the Hilborn straight shafts, these can be a problem once the engine warms up as they can cause each butterfly to be at a slightly different angle which means poor vacuum and also a fast idol. I have a small Ford Zetec engine with Hilborn IR injectors that came with a long solid shaft and I could not get it to have a consistent idle until I cut the shafts between the throttles and installed the trick adjustable shaft connectors from Kinsler. Expensive but they work.

Rex

 

Rick,

Excellent progress. As I live in the land of Oz, I will attempt to eliminate all squeally noises by mental telepathy.

I can't think of anything finer than carving a few New England back roads with you and your ride. As for roadsters...just promise not to roll up your windows no matter how hard it rains.

Being "thrilled" with your car says it all. Good on ya.

Keep up the great progress.

charlie

 

HMMM...put the TPS inside the barrel valve...???? Hell, it's only more work.

 

VERY cool idea. I will place your imaginative suggestion in the important stufff file.

charlie

 

Rex,


Sorry about the slow response, I’ve been distracted for the last few days.

VERY sharp question regarding a vacuum supply to the fuel regulator. Brett, who works for Aeromotive by the way, brought the nipples and hoses to supply the regulator on Sunday. When we fired the Hemi there was NO vacuum signal. It was late and we put off any trouble shooting. More on this point in my next post.

You are absolutely correct regarding the Hilborn shafts. If they are “free” at room temp the shaft will almost inevitable begin to bind at running temp and visa versa. Obviously we are confirming that steel rods and aluminum castings do not have the same heat expansion characteristics. Duh.

Awhile back, I looked into the Kinsler shaft couplers. Deep searching on the web also uncovered even more sophisticated shaft couplers from companies that supply manufacturing plants (lots of shafts, I guess). In any case I decided for the time being that the appearance was not what I wanted. I consider the top of the Hemi to be the focal point of my TR.

I have found that routinely “adjusting” the butterflies (butterflys?) and a tiny drop of teflon based lubricant on each side of all 8 stacks keeps things manageable, a slightly stiffer throttle return spring also helps.

In some future perfect hot rod universe I will have the Hilborns put on a fixture and rifle-drilled, bronze bushing and seals at each shaft boss. I await the perfect future...

Thanks for your spot on suggestions. I wish I had had access to your knowledge before I set-up my Hilborns; what a difference that would have made.

charlie
aka trakrodstre

 

To recap a bit, we did some more updating and adjusting on Sunday last (e.g. see the post above to Rex Schimmer). 

About 5:00pm we had the engine management stuff completely assembled. New pushrods, new ½ in longer fuel return hose, new vacuum line to the fuel regulator, valve covers buttoned up, throttle linkage back in place. We were ready to go...

The Hemi fired on the first rev but was running extremely rich. Bottom line — there was no vacuum signal detected by the electronics. We checked the obvious: hose connections etc. No luck. Brett had not brought his vacuum gauge or vacuum pump so we reluctantly called it a day. 



Yesterday evening on his way home from work Brett stopped by with his gauge and pump. We went back to square one to test the vacuum circuit. We attached the vacuum pump to the hose at the back of the plenum and pumped. It was possible to pull a vacuum but it fell off within a few seconds. We kept eliminating possibilities and found that about half of the push-in connectors on the plenum and on the Hilborn bosses were leaking. We tried brand new tubing, and the fittings still leaked. We then isolated all the push-in connectors from the vacuum circuit and no leakage was observed. Hooray, we found what must certainly be a major contributor to a complete lack of vacuum signal.

We also tested the vacuum generated by each cylinder one-by-one, by attaching a hose to each boss on the Hilborn stacks and cranking the engine. Every cylinder pulled at least 15 in of mercury. I guess technically this is actually a measure of “venturi” vacuum, but this too is great news.

I will order some new push-in fittings so we can return to tuning the EFI system. The value of the new CPU was once again shown to be super-useful because we knew that we had a serious problem with the vacuum circuit, BEFORE we tried to tune the engine. With the old system there was no direct feedback. Brett is going to bring a new MAP sensor next time so we can test whether the present (original) MAP sensor is functioning properly.

I am breathing a lot easier, no pun intended.

trakrodstr
aka charlie
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We made more progress calibrating the engine management and diagnosing some weird tuning issues. On the other hand we had an out-of-body-experience involving the alternator!

First the EFI and tuning:
I orderd a set of nickel-plated brass push in connectors to replace all the fittings on the vacuum plenum. We also replaced all the hoses that communicated with the vacuum system. We did a quick static test with Brett’s vacuum pump and the new fittings held plenum vacuum. Brett also ran a vacuum line to the Aeromotive fuel regulator. Once those easy jobs were completed we anxiously started the Hemi, and sure enough, after a few software tweaks, the CPU began processing a “real” vacuum signal. Brett was able to get the air/fuel rations near 14:1 for the driver-side bank but not so good for the other bank, about 17:1, and the values were bouncing all over the place. Hummm….WTF is going on?

I suggested that we independently check the idle position adjusters for the two Hilborn throttle rods (which operate independently, but are connected by throttle linkage). Sure enough the driver-side throttle rods was open a bit more, at idle, compared to the passenger-side stacks. By that I mean one-half of a turn on the adjusting nut, or 1 skosh for the technically minded. While this adjustment helped, it did not rectify the side-to-side difference in the A/F ratios at IDLE. I should say that once the throttles were opened a bit the two banks began giving similar readings based on the O2 sensors. It is common knowledge that the throats in Hilborn stacks do not all flow identically at idle.

I should backtrack and remind you readers that the Maserodi now has two O2 sensors, one in each exhaust collector. One O2 sensor is connected to the Accel CPU, which Brett could read on his laptop; the other O2 sensor is connected to a gauge I have hidden in the glove box.

To return to the story — at idle the two O2 sensors were not reading the same, but once the RPM was above idle the two sensor provided the same reading.

We had to know if the problem was “real” i.e., that there is in fact a big bank-to-bank difference in the A/F ratios; or whether one of the sensors was malfunctioning. Accordingly, we swapped the two O2 connectors and still got wacky readings, so we replaced the “older” O2 sensor, which was connected to the gauge in the glovebox. Sure enough, with a replacement sensor on the passenger side we now had similar readings for both banks.

Brett wanted to do some fuel/air programming at 1000 and 2000 RPM, so we started the engine and let it come up to full operating temp, where the electric fan was cycling on and off. At this point we noticed that the dash engine water temp gauge was reading about 20 degrees higher that Brett’s laptop values. Brett had his infrared thermometer (handheld) and we checked the water crossover pipe, water hoses, thermostat housing, cylinder heads etc. The infrared thermometer values corresponded with to the Accel CPU values, and not the dash water temp gauge. Thus, I had always been under the impression that the engine was running hotter than it really was. We reset the electric fan thermostat so the engine would run hotter, at about 200 degrees F.

Brett went back to trying to get consistent A/F values at idle, but the O2 values were fluctuating pretty widely. He could change values with the laptop but his changes weren’t making too much sense.

Just for the grins I picked up the handheld infrared thermometer and started measuring the temp of the exhaust pipes near the flange. Whoa! What a disparity. The front exhaust pipe on both banks (#1cyl and #2cyl) was reading about 190-200 F and the third pipe back on each bank (#5 and #6) were reading about 500 F!!!

Lesson: At IDLE, in a V8 with fresh Hilborn stacks in good shape (1700 miles) some cylinders are operating at correct A/F ratios (#5 and #6), while others are completely off in the ozone (#1 and #2). Absolutely amazing. So what Brett was reading on his laptop was presumably a composite of highy different values wherby some cylinders were probably running good A/F ratios, while other cylinders on that bank are rich; thus, causing the exhaust gas temperatures to be phenomenally different from header pipe to header pipe. Curiously, the “inner” cylinders on both banks were running at higher temps (better combustion) than the cylinder at each end of the bank.

ANY IDEAS HAMBERS????

Anyone familiar with stack injectors would think that the butterflys (throttle plates) are sitting differently in each stack housing and allowing more or less air passage at idle; a condition well know to occur in Hilborn stacks. What is puzzling to me is that there is a pattern — “outside” cylinders in each bank running colder than “inner” cylinders. This is completely baffling to me. Why should the Hilborn throttle plates flow differently on inner cylinders compared to outside cylinders? Why isn't the pattern random? There must be a couple of phenomena going on…maybe Brett and I will figure it out, we’ll see. Any ideas, or expert advise would be appreciated.

We may have a plan to even out the air flow through each stack at idle….I’ll let you know.

All this happened yesterday, Sat 18th, an at this point it was about 8:00pm. We decided to call it a day. We sat down for about 20 minutes for a snack and then went back to the garage and started to clean up and put away tools. Brett smelled something funny but didn’t say anything. I happened to glance at the engine and saw smoke pouring out of the alternator. Huh? The engine had been off for at least 30min while we were relaxing.

We disconnected the battery but more smoke was coming out of the alternator the smell was definitely had that “electrical” fire odor. After a couple of minutes the smoking stopped. The alternator was hot as a pistol. We waited a bit and removed the alternator which appeared fine and which spun freely. Our only guess is that the voltage regulator was fried but that the alternator was not directly involved. We won’t know until the alternator is disassembled. It was so weird to look over at the alternator after it had been sitting for 30 min and see it on fire! Brett says that he thinks the TR has a curse on it and it needs an excorcist.

What can I say? I am stoked that the vacuum circuit is finally functional. That fact, to me, is huge. I am now convinced we will get this beast to run properly off-idle. I make no predictions regarding its ultimate idle characteristics. However, even with all the crazy idle issues the Dodge Hemi sounds fine at idle and sits right at 600 RPM. Oh yeah and it starts on the key, no fiddling with the throttle pedal and certainly no #$%@^*!& priming the Hilborns with a squirt bottle. Hooray.

Trakrodstr
Ala charlie

 

Is the fuel to all the injectors coming from one fuel block? What i am asking is, is every injector getting the same fuel pressure?

REMEMBER THE ROCK, USED AT JACK'S SHOP? SEND IT BACK!

 

Charlie,
LB+1 may have a point, where is your fuel pressure control valve located in the fuel line? Is it before or after the fuel rails? It should be connected to the very end of the fuel rail and then back to the tank. If you put it on the inlet side of the fuel rail you can, on initial start up have a air block in the fuel rail, if it is mounted at the very end of the fuel rail(s) then the gas has to flow through the rails to the regulator and then back to the tank, so the rails are always full of gas at all times once the fuel pump is turned on. Since you have a V8 I would think you would want the fuel pump connected to one end of the two fuel rails then the other ends connected together and through the fuel regulator and back to the tank.

Rex