My intentions are to paint my vintage steel motorcycle tank and side covers gloss black. So you might want to walk away right now as Ill state that I have no experience with automotive paints. I have been researching the hell out of this topic and I finally realized I am overwhelmed by what I am reading. One major concern is some of this information is years old, so I am not sure if any of these past recomendations apply to the modern regulated paints. I made a trip to my local Finishmasters and left bewildered. The guy in the store was nice enough but he was suggesting mixing products from several different manufactures and of course he repeatedly told me it was all good, or that the next product was good too. I saw the red flag when he suggested mixing products! If you can steer me towards some of the recomended products, paint lines or systems available now in California, or the surrounding states, I would appreciate it. <O></O>
I used Restoration shop acrylic urethane,,it layed down nice..looked great and it is durable. A gas tank is pretty small so any flaws can easily be wet sanded and hand buffed. Great learning experience. It would be much less work fixing runs and sags on your project than a whole car. We should all start out that way,,a gas tank or trunk lid..Keep it simple..
Dupont. You can still by lacquer in most states if you are not a professional painter (you can't use it in a professional paint shop). Or you can use single stage dupont enamel. Buy primer, reducer/thinner all at the same time, the same brand and go home and spray your little heart out.
In California now most of the basecoat paint is now water-based. You have to have a special gun to spray this paint. The primers and clears are still oil-based, which means you can spray it with older equipment. Last I heard, PPG's shop line is still oil-based, but VOC compliant, meaning no special gun. (Double check with your paint supplier though, as my info is about 18 months old) My FinishMaster guys are pretty knowledgable about what stuff (primers, bases and clears) interchanges with what other stuff, for the best price. So far I have had no issues mixing products based on their advice. Where in Cali are you? And what products are they recommending? A lot of what is available varies by county here also.
X2 on lacquer. It's foolproof, especially in solid colors. Just lay it on (after proper prep, of course) let it dry, hit it a few more time, give it a few days to cure, wet sand and rub/buff. If you rub through, just lay on a few more coats and repeat. If you get a run or sag, wipe it off with your thumb and blow on a bit more paint to level it off. I just finished my bike in black. It still needs a final polish, but it looks great even after the second cut with the buffer. I ordered the paint online from a place in San Diego.
On a bike I'd say lacquer would be the way to go. Back when I lived in Central Texas in the 70's and a lot of guys were building choppers the local paint store sold custom mixed spray cans of lacquer every day all day long. I have no idea of how many spray cans of red primer from that shop I used when I was building the 48 the first time. The good thing about lacquer for guys who don't paint a lot is spray on, let dry, sand smooth and spray another couple of coats and sand lightly again and repeat until you get it the way you want it. The other thing is that it isn't catalyzed and you don't have to deal with that issue.
x3. Lacquer is the way to go for a first time painter. Very forgiving, easy to fix mistakes. And it looks really good once its rubbed out.
Thanks guys I appreciate the encouragement. I have over looked the use of Lacquer thinking a catalyzed system was the better way to go. I have a few issues that are most likely familure to most of you.I have rusty metal to deal with. I plan on throwing them in a blasting cabinet and stripping them. It was suggested that; I clean and prime the rusty surfaces, follow up with an acid etch primer, then an epoxy primer, body work, base and top coat. I like the concept of applying a caned spray etch immediately then following up later with an epoxy as it buys me some time between blasting the parts and setting up a paint station. <O></O> <O></O> Do any of these steps still apply to lacquer?<O></O> <O></O> I will likely be putting down some decals, transfers or painted pin-stripping. <O></O> <O></O> Are the lacquer systems similar to laying a base followed by a top coat?<O></O> <O></O> Are they UV resistant and fuel resistant?<O></O>
There ya go,,lacquer is #1 choice,,I have never used it but it's on my bucket list now.. Lots of good info on lacquer in the replies..
Wow now, don’t abandon me. For one, I would like to hear some more on your acrylic urethane experience. Alsoo, when you guys are suggesting lacquer are you talking solvent or acrylic
Here's some tech threads I did that should give you some help. Since your location is somewhat of a secret, you may live where some products are regulated or prohibited. Anyway---I hope there is something useful. The small gun I like to use is perfect for bike parts. Bike parts are a good place to learn skills. Search-- painting tips--paint guns--spraying--. Spraying motorcycle tanks and volkswagens are the easiest---they are shaped like an egg. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14597&showall=1 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225633&highlight=painting+tips&showall=1 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354215&highlight=painting+wheels+video Gloss black urethane thread. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446708&highlight=painting+tips&showall=1
All lacquers are solvent. You can order nitro cellulose on line that is the real old school stuff or you can buy acrylic at NAPA as well as other suppliers. I almost always used lacquer on my bikes. The newer urathanes are very hazardess to the technician, supposedly easier on the environment. Lacquer on the other hand is supposedly harder on the environment but it will not kill you as fast. Just foood for thought.
Overspray, I got to confess that in doing a search on the topic of painting I was led to one of your earlier post on the subject. That in turn brought me to the HAMB.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> You have an exceptional ability to take a complex topic and divide it into clear and concise segments that are easily digestible. <o></o> I viewed the urethane thread last night and should of taken notes. Really good information on single stage paints. J rippers post of 2/16/10 really caught my eye. <o></o> The linguring question remains, are any of the paints suggested in that thread still available? It looks like the industry has goon through a big transition from 2010 to now.<o></o>
P N B, I though Acrylic might of refered to a water based paint. I'll read up on them and thanks for straighting me out
Acrylic urethane is not water based,,,okay,, I have painted numerous vehicles and I really liked the way the acrylic flowed. I have only used waterbourne paint once on a vehicle. It flowed well, I did not use a special spray gun as some people say is required however you do have to clearcoat the waterbourne paint and I found the flashover time longer for the basecoat.. Basecoat with a clear is what I would have considered the easiest to use whether solvent or waterbourne,,,I shot a truck with Lessonal basecoat,,easy to spray, excellent coverage and durable.. I am never concerned about environment however for a motorcycle gas tank you are not going to create much overspray.. I am no pro,,just not willing not leave a vehicle with a body paint shop.
IF you can find a place that still has some old PPG urethane single stage use it, it flows out great!. Chevy54 on here used Linco urethane and he liked it, that's all they sell by my house now that isn't water based. As I under stand it, the paint stores can keep what they had in the mixers for PPG, Linco is California compliant and not water base. Painted in the driveway with PPG urethane, it flows out flatter as it hardens so you could get it real nice with little practice and color sand for a mirror finish.
you're spraying gloss black so so pearls or metalics,,those can give you grief and repairing flaws not so easy for a novice. I had a earwig do a deathmarch up the sail panel of this car while the paint was still wet,,,,repainted the whole car once i convinced myself the finish on the whole car was not to my liking,,,way too much time sanding and painting IMO
You might have to "bootleg" some in to Kalifornicate. There are a lot of products to choose from. http://www.utech.us/utech/en-us/Pages/HomePage.aspx http://www.ppg.com/COATINGS/REFINISH/EN/PRODUCTS/DELTRON/Pages/systemSelection.aspx http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/ http://www.carpaintdepot.com/
I really appreciate the links to the various paint companies but at this point its way too much information. A company like PPG list several product lines leading to dozens of choices. I will look up the data sheets once I narrow my choices. Unfortunately they no longer support internet sales so its not easy to price these materials. Honestly if you can narrow down my search options and steer me to specific products it will be more helpful. So far lacquer and acrylic urethane appear to be the favorites. <O</O My issues: rusty metal, and i really only need small quantizes, I am thinking a quart is overkill.
Parker, I believe you are over thinking what should be a small project. Any common automotive paint will work well. I prefer basecoat-clearcoat urethane. The basecoat sprays on like lacquer and the clearcoat gives it depth and gloss. Any dust or runs are easily taken care of with "color sanding" and buffing. I use NAPA products. The guys in paint stores know what is compatible, the brand names on the can mean little as far as compatibility. Also the two part primers are wonderful, they do not clog the sandpaper like the old lacquer primers, and fill real well. Just do it! Alden
I actually wouldn't reccomend lacquer for a motorcycle project. The modern urethanes are tougher, more UV and fuel resistant. As stated, the basecoat sprays a lot like lacquer, and the clear is very forgiving. My first ever bike paint job was candy lacquer, I didn't have a garage at the time, in about a year, it was cracking and fading...it could have been me ?? But I've never had a simular problem with urethane, and I have painted lots of bikes since that first one. If you aren't spraying a metallic color, just use a single stage urethane.
ive painted cars and bikes for around 38 yrs and found old school lacquer is easiest for beginners. the shit is almost dry before it hits the metal so less chance for a f/u.and when the f/u comes and it will, it will be easier for him to fix.i shot a bike for a friend back in the late 70s, gloss black.still has it and its still lookin good.and its lacquer.
Lacquer paint is the way to go for a newby. I have painted for 30 years and currently teach Auto Collision repair at a community college. Teaching a painting class as I write this. Lacquer is perfect for a small job like a motorcycle. I wouldn't do a whole car with it though, and have'nt for many years. Lacquer is cheap, easily applied, easily fixed, can be sprayed with about any gun, including the $9.99 cheapy touch up guns from HB, and dries quickly. I think you can even get premixed colors in a can from Duplicolor. We have it here at O'reilly"s. Ready to spray. Not sure if it's legal in every state.
Well Parker, sounds like you are a little overwelmed with the info, and thats expected when learning a new skill and the technology that goes with it. More to it than just putting the wet stuff on the red stuff. Firefighters have lots of time off, so you need to find a painter or body shop, that will let you hang out every once in a while and see how this process works. Watch, pay attention, ask questions, but don't be a pest--take it cool. Hell, with shift work you may be able find a little part time work at a body shop and have access to everything you need including instruction. Then read some more, check out the internet and of course search on this wonderful place for info. It will start to make sense and turn into a fun and rewarding hobby. It won't happen overnight. I too, wouldn't reccomend lacquer for a motorcycle, but lacquer is a good place to start. Maybe you can find another small project to paint before tackling the motorcycle. I'll bet there are some small things around the fire station that need painting. I think I have painted all or part of at least 6 fire apparatus and other pieces of equipment at my fire station. Keep after it, overspray
Local paint shop will sell paint,,stock or custom blend in quantities as little as 1/2 pint here.. Check your local shop. They may even have a on site paint guru..I was at one the other week looking for mismatch paint for a project(these can be had for a 50% discount at least) and was surprised to see he had 3 different cans of black paint mismatches...And I thought black was black,,not so Once you have applied black paint to your gas tank you will know if it was prepped properly for paint.....any line or scratch is going to show,,,the tank must be perfect
"Over-thinking It", You bet. There is a reason you guys are professionals or at least get professional results. You know how to choose the right products and then you know enough to make the proper adjustments for the conditions your working in. Lots of solid advice from you guys and I appreciate and respect your opinions. As you know these products are expensive so I don't want to throw away dough on the wrong stuff. I realized this isn't as easy as going down to the local jobber and leaving with a box of supplies. I am in the San Francisco area so it's likely we are more regulate than other areas. I have a couple other shops to check and I haven't ruled out intent sales. I do have the ability to source products form the Reno Nevada area. The first shop I hit, well lets just say english was his second language. I really didn't have a lot of confidence that we were communicating with each other. I hit up City Paints in SF yesterday which went much better. He told me lacquers were phased out, and suggested BC/CC Dupont Nasson combo. (I see the Nasson line getting really mixed reviews.) He said they only have one black and paired it with the 2400s CC and 2475s activator. In looking up the data it stated the 2400s needs a oven cure of 10 min at 120. Now do these products need the oven time to kick, or should I look for a CC that can air dry? Im also considering asking a body shop if he can sell me some product. Do the BC or CC have shelf lives, I would think the reducers and activators do
In California Lacquers are long gone, enamel too, urethane was mostly phased too a couple of years ago. Stay away from good paint companies cheaper lines like PPG omni, have a friend who used restoration shop stuff and didn't like it. Single stage is cheaper and easier to use, if your going to paint more in the future spend the money on a descent gun (harbor freight is ok for a primer gun).
you planning on painting anything other than a tank and tins, if not, let a pro do it, gonna cost you a ton to paint those yourself if you dont have the equipment or a friend with it, my sprayer cost me over 500...........
Ok, you have raised some questions within my mind. If lacquer is not catalyzed, and you do not spray clear coat, where is the durability? Where is the fuel resistance? Uncatalyzed paint usually does not last long, from my experience..which isn't much compared to some of you. Second, Shop line paint from PPG is Urethane based, not oil based. You can get in BC/CC or in single stage. In single stage, it is catalyzed, in BC/CC it is not catalyzed but the clear is. The "special" gun for waterborne paints is essentially your same gun with stainless steel internals. Aluminum and steel can both be affected by water, so they make them stainless to avoid problems for the guy who may not clean his gun immediately, or clears it out with solvent but puts it away wet...because the solvent used to clean waterborne paint out is water... With that said, I think whichever paint you decide to run with, BC/CC is the answer, it is really hard to run BC with a little practice, it is very easy to shoot. With that said, the clear is where you need to be careful, but as long as you keep moving and don't just keep spraying it every 5 mins, you won't get too many runs or sags, and as said before, they can all be sanded out and buffed...This is true with Urethane or Lacquer systems. If you choose to go Lacquer, without clear coat, I would spray a test panel and let it dry for a couple days and dump gas on it....that is the best way to tell if it will be affected by gas, I have had paint wrinkle at the gas opening just from the fumes, so I get a bit skiddish around that anyway...
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