At the risk of incurring the wrath of the foundation members of this thread I would like to offer a little history lesson. I am old enough to have seen a twin flatty run against a carbureted SB for Top Eliminator and a Stude powered 52 Chevy terrorize the modified sedan class. I built my first dedicated drag car using TV tower tubing for the frame. After the big war (WW II) organized drag racing started with run what you brung/grudge matches. It didnt take long before everyone realized that there was no substitute for cubic money. In order to make sure that the novice and lower budget operations stayed in the new sport, classes evolved. Safety rules were added in response to a series of tragic accidents. Interest in the HA/GR style racer in very high and three (or more) groups offer rule packages that regulate the cars ( H.A.M.B., SDRA, NW Vintage Dragsters). Dont forget the blokes from Down Under either. All seem to have one or more local strips that allow them to run head to head with each other. Even though the rules of the various groups are 90% the same there are slight differences that discourage one group from traveling a long distance to compete against another. None of the U.S. groups, with the possible exception of the OK guys, have enough cars to field a group of the size needed to convince a strip promoter to allow them to compete against each other as a separate class. Racers spend their time and money so that they can race. This means competing against others on a regular basis. In order to prevent HA/GRs from digressing into exhibition runs, cackle fests, or a once a year national meet, some rules standardization compromise must be reached. If there are clear performance advantages to a certain rule, a handicap system can be used. Remember the old Ill spot you three lengths. Preserving the past is a wonderful thing but in some cases it can be cost prohibitive. Having a garage full of vintage parts or being able to afford rare (expensive) performance items should not be a prerequisite for being able to participate. nuff said.
In as much as this's my build thread, I'll field it. No wrath from me, opinions and discourse are what a forum's about. First, there are two very different sides of the "Postwar Passion" coin represented here. One (HA/GR, both the homies and the Aussies), is into low buck, garage built cars, grudge racing, and into re-living the era to an extent, with "gotta win" seconded to that. The other style (SDRA, V/GD, and a couple other possibles) are into competition first, with a period appearing car seconded to that. Most of us understand the dichotomy, and feel there's plenty of room for both under the HAMBster (as that's where it started) banner. We also realize that due to the nature of people today, the HA/GR side of it will be less popular with new builders than the SDRA side. There're fewer folks into the actuality of it than there are folks choosing to avoid facing the problems and solutions of the era they espouse by substituting modern equipment and practices. There always will be both sides, and we feel they compliment & strengthen each other. They don't divide some mythical existing unified group, but rather entice two different outlooks into our corner of the game, making for a larger whole. As to "You can't beat cubic inches (money)"? So what else is new? Name me a sport, enterprise, business, government, ad nauseum, that has escaped this fundamental fact of human society. We have a place for those with the means and the will to do that ...... 1st. You'll note the HA/GR rules are particularly easy to cheat. If that's all you want, it's a piece of cake. Actual HA/GR is simply about something a bit more personal before that. Thus, there're at least two sets of rules needed, one set just won't address both goals. To that end, the original HA/GR rules are holding up nicely indeed for the HA/GR folks' interests ..... and the SDRA rules appear to be winning out for the more modern folks' interests. Personally, I think the effort's coming along fairly close to what should've been expected. I also think "Postwar Passion" (my term, thank you ) nostalgia racing'll continue to grow. But then, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna about it, a "slightly" biased judge. If you'll copy your post to the "Rules" thread at the head of the forum, and delete it here on my build thread, I'll do the same. More folks'll see'em over there than on my build thread anyway.
Well put Dick and as you already know I agree wholeheartedly. We have discussed this two types of "HAMBster" cars and as a SDRA builder I have told you meney time that it is about making passes with my type of car. I think both the HA/GR & SDRA rules are fine as they are. People should build what ever they want and enjoy both the build and the racing when it is done. I wish I could convey my message in writing a little better, But that why there are so meany pictures in my build thread.
Well, I do tend to go off on it a bit sometimes, us Pollyanna types are known for that. Pichurs, gud. Mor phun ta lookit then rants.
I agree with nearly everthing that you said. Nearly. The cubic money issue is the reason that I left the strip and went dirt track racing for many years. No matter the form of racing, every time someone comes up with a new class there are people that start to cheat. Some times in order to get more people under the same tent, you need a bigger tent. I am not advocating changing the rules just to accommodate the "go faster" crowd but after having followed all of the posts on the HA/GR subject for sometime it seems like the common lament is about a lack of opportunites to compete against like minded people. The reason the carrier pigeon went extinct was because when there were only two of them left...one died. I only question the reasoning behind some of the things posted. I still can't rememeber seeing a cast iron 'glide with a 1200 rpm stall speed that would beat a good stick. Even the old "type writers" wheren't any better. I know the tire rule is intented to slow the cars down but I don't like the thought of sending a bushel basket of money to Coker just to have a legal tire that is competitive. And why not really keep in the spirit of the "bug" and require steel wheels, no mags - no motorcyle wheels? Why not just mild steel instead of costly 'moly? I strongly support the kind of early/late engine distinction that the Inliners use. I also believe that a little "messaging" of the rules could really lower the cost of fielding a HA/GR. I personally can't fix anything metric or electronic but I am sure there are plently of H.A.M.B.sters that can't set points or adjust a carb. I don't intent to come to someone elses ball park and try to change the rules. I'm just pointing out the things that I personally have questions about. "It is truely amazing the number of times that it is possible to split a hair"
Ok...For lack of something to do I'll try and answer your questions from my point of view. Cubic money is not a real problem, nor cheating from my point of view. Spend all you want, it's your money. Cheat all you want if that's what blows your dress up. The class Isn't really about who is fastest, who has the prettiest and highest tech car. It's about living in the past for those who did and those who wish to experience what it was like, "back then". Don't need a "Tent" at all, the pits are more than big enough, you just have to have the want to go back in time. Otherwise, build what you want and race it, that's what we are doing. Those who complain about "lack of opportunities to compete against like minded people" won't build a car if you were to change the rules anyway, it's just an excuse and a way out for their egos. Carrier Pigeons don't drag race anyway so bury them with the dead horse everyone keeps flogging about this class and the rules. Automatics have changed greatly over the years, A stick is still a stick. If you don't know how to shift, run a class where people like automatics. No one is forcing you to build to our rules. Rule 20. "Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed." Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″. Nowhere does it say you must run a Coker Tire, or even what diameter of tire, the only thing stated is "only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed". Self explanatory! If you have the money, run whatever type of wheel you want. As long as it's "no wider than 6", (see above) who cares. This isn't a beauty contest, but if you are that obsessed with making a "vintage style car" look like something it's not, go for it. While "a little "massaging" of the rules could really lower the cost of fielding a HA/GR", a lot of old style "Hot Rodder's Ingenuity", works too. People complain about the cost of speed parts. Parts can be made at home in the garage just like they did "back in the day", that's what the true spirit of "The Bug" is about, not buying parts. Look back over the comments in old posts from people asking about plans for the cars. This isn't a "spec class", never was meant to be, it's about people building cars at home and it's a "builders class" not really designed for "street rodder" bolt together folks. True, there probably are "plenty of H.A.M.B.sters that can't set points or adjust a carb". That doesn't mean they can't learn how, and if they are really interested in building an HA/GR it is a necessary skill. As it has been said many times before, "if it was easy, everybody would be doing it". Not saying you are trying to change the rules, though many before you have not really understood what the class is about and have tried. Hope I have answered your questions or at least given you a different perspective of the matter. "It is truely amazing the number of times that it is possible to split a hair", or beat the proverbial "Dead Horse", but neither exercise is worth the effort.
it does not say no chromemoly in rule one but is understood that these are mild steel cars I dont know of any moly cars but there may be one
Gentlemen, I believe that'd be "massaging" rather than "messaging" at any rate. Don't think texting'll do much. Sorry guys, it just hit me funny. Anyway, I have the evening free, and feel like running on a bit again. Feel free to ignore me. Actually, the slush pump thing's first about having to handle a clutch and a gear lever as part of the experience. Putting the driver back in the race's one of the points of it all. Pretty hard to lose a race by missing a shift with an automatic. The fact that no one's running anything even close to an honest '50 slush pump's pretty much second to that. I could bolt up a 904 to mine (the one it came with, for instance ), but it'd hardly be representative of anything in '50. Nor would it be any sort of representation of the postwar period of drag racing. An iron case two speed with .200" between single stage converter halves would be correct, but of course, it'd be as hopeless as they were then. Y'know, Rocky & Lee got it right when they put the stick in their HA/GR. They went to the trouble and effort of removing every other tooth in their gearbox (a tedious task) for faster and slicker shifting, something done back then by the fast boys. 'Course Lee needed to train his clutch foot a tad to keep'em alive a bit longer, just like the boys back then had to. All part of the experience. Hell, I've run the same weak stock gearbox for four years now, the same weak stock rear end, and I finally managed to pull some teeth off an axle spider about mid last season. The teeth were still off when I removed it last week, I'd finished the season out with it. How? Lessons learned driving a '50 Chev six "torpedo" (GM's fast-back then) in N/S back in high school. It cost the teenage me a couple gearboxes to learn'em, but that's the point of HA/GR. Gentlemen, I have no quarrel what so ever with those not interested in my outlook, they have their own lives to live and enjoy. Nor do I honestly give a rusty fuck if HA/GR becomes a "thing" .... or not, I'm having a ball doing it. I'll happily help anyone who wants to try it out, and I'll happily help anyone who wants to try out some variation of it. I'm where I want to be in this, and if that's inside or outside, it's cool. Russ and I spent '07 as the only ones around here, and that was fun as well.
Damn spell check. We need word check too. If it weren't for you and Russ, I'd still be messing with street cars and there probably wouldn't be any HA/GRs on the west coast.
There'd be one. Hey, don't pass the blame to us, you were nuts long before. And it looks like you could use "grammar check" as well, "weren't" being the proper subjunctive match for "if". And we'll ignore my starting sentences with "and", right?
Dick is a technically competent romantic. Not many of those around. And HA/GR's grammar Guru too. After reading your last exposition I noticed an affection for contractions. The HA/GR forum is my favorite playground on the Internet. I get bummed when there is no activity. Thanks Dick for being the ringmaster when needed.
All this writing stuff is not my my cup of tea, thats why I like pictures so much. Speaking of pictures, is no one working on their cars? We need some more pictures of builds and modifications. Don't even go into "Texting", that is were I get off the train.
"Technically Competent" has a nice ring to it. Probably more Baroque than Romantic. Prefers Bach over Mozart and can be somewhat obsessive over grammar violations. Sometime has more contractions than a pregnant woman in her tenth month and as for being a "Ringmaster", when he is as passionate about something as he is about the HA/GR class he can be "Ringmaster", "Ringleader" and "Pit Bull on Steroids" about the concept. He lives the idea of drag racing like it was back then when people would be fierce competitors and still loan parts and help their fellow competitors repair cars between rounds just so they could race them the next round. An artist with a pile of parts or scrap metal and the best friend you could ask for. After fifty plus years of shared insanity, I can vouch for that. Does he have fun doing what he does? This picture sums it all up in his best "Stormy Byrd" imitation!
Good grief, you guys're hard to please. OK, here're some pictures of what I've been up to (so far this year) that aren't in the albums yet ......... I had to build a parking/service space to better utilize my ridiculously steep driveway. I also tapped out Toad's mashed in right taillight sheet metal, and remounted the taillight (not done yet in this picture). Later (after I used it to replace a mid driveshaft overdrive set-up in my truck with a new driveshaft & center support set-up) I made one ramp removable, to allow access to the garage for cars again. Once finished, I moved the Barn Job down to the garage for my major fiddling this year. Said major fiddling includes a change from the 7 1/4" Chrysler rear end (that only has 4.10 gears available) to an 8" Ford one for which I've ordered a 4.62 set. ...... and ...... This required me to shift the gearbox mount 15/16" to the left to meet the Ford pinion (which is centered in the rear end, unlike Chrysler's offset one). To work it I had to make up a new mount, as well as a pair of adapter cups for the Ford axis of the u-joint. The nice thing's that I can now toss the wheel adapters I'd made up for the 4 1/2" lug pattern wheels I have (to mount'em to the 4" pattern Chrysler axles). Now I mount'em directly to the 4 1/2" Ford axles they were designed for (please note grammar error ). This also narrows my rear track by 1 1/2". On a minor downside, I had to mount the new rear 1" farther back (1/2" due to the longer Ford pinion shaft, and 1/2" more on the slip joint to facilitate engine/gearbox lift-out). This lengthed my wheelbase to 125" (I've already updated the info in the thread opener). I still need to remount the rear bones, shorten the shift linkage tubes, and remount the master cylinder (it's getting hard mounted to the axle housing, to facilitate unit removal), oh yeah, and pop in the 4.62s when they get here. It also cost me an added 35lbs, as the Ford's heavier overall. Oh well, at least it's over the footprint. OK, 'nuff pichurs fer now?
Well Dick those are some major modification you have done around the shop and on the car. Thanks for the pictures. I must say that is one steep driveway, but it works out nice for getting under the race car with your ramp setup.
Old6 I like the ramps, but, wouldn't an X brace in the end be a good idea. I don't follow the change to more gear. What rpm do you go thru the lights. I know the "Senile Ole Men" have made an 8000 rpm pass, trany didn't shift, that caused unwanted results. Although nothing came out, it didn't do anything any good.
An X on the end'd really cut access. All four ramp pads have three 1/2" x 24" pins each, down through the concrete, then welded to the pads. The ramp next to the wall is attached there, and the other ramp's cross barred to that one when it's in place. Hey, this's SoCal, Sir. I engineer for 'quakes. The 4.62s are because I'm presently hitting the traps at about 5000 with the 4.10s (hides are 29"). The 12.5% increase should put me through still well below 6000. The 8" is because one of the 7 1/4" axle spiders only lasted three seasons.
Dick is the 8.0 rear end setup a little lighter than a 9" setup? Are you running an open gear or a locker rear center? I am going to run a Mustang 8.8 rear with a traction lock setup with 3.90 gears to start with. There are only two chooses to go higher, a 4.10 & 4.56. I will see after it runs if that was a good choose. I think there is a big difference in a stick (HA/GR) and an automatic (SDRA) setup. That old wall has been through at lease 20 earth quakes in its day and it's still a solid brace.
Yeah, from what I've heard over the years a slush pump runs out differently than a stick. Never raced one myself, but they certainly drive different on the street. Yes, the 8" is lighter than the 9", even though some of'em can share a couple parts, mostly bearings I've been told. By how much I don't know. They must be fairly tough though, Lee beats the shit out of their mini-spooler and has had little trouble with it. I'll run mine peg-legged (like I ran the 7 1/4"), I've repeatedly read (and seen photo evidence) that the clutched ones are weak around the clutch case top, and my car's very well balanced already. Nor do I like a spool on a full width rear, just too much lever in a bad situation. I'm still quite new to Ford components. I've only dealt with an FE 390 converted to an FT 391 & C6 in the float, an early Bronco 9" in my Roadster, and the '29 front end on the Barn Job (all of which were a learning curve for me), so I'm doing my homework, and learning as I go.
Dick, you might try the "Poor Boy Posi".........double shim the side gears to tighten up the spiders. I think I have a MINI spool if ya change your mind.
Yep, I'll set up the spiders nice'n snug as usual (it ain't a street machine ). That's one of the old things that helped the 7 1/4" last so well. And this time I'm getting an oh-fish-all "installation kit" (with real shim sets), like a rich boy, too. Thanks for the offer, I'll keep it in mind. Sure is nice, the things available for the 8".
Well, I have most of this year's list for the Barn Job done finally. Finished up the cooling system re-design, it turned into quite a project. Seems I re-design the re-designed system a couple times mid-project sometimes. Tends to take a bit longer that way, but you know, these ideas just keep cropping up. What can I say? The 8" rear end now has new wheel cylinders, and the master cylinder mounted to it. The system now works even better than its predecessor. I drove'er up onto the trailer (to make garage room for the big secret project), and it sure felt good to flame'er again. The rear still has the stock 3.00 gears, and frankly I'd forgotten just how tall 3.00s feel. It'll be good to get the 4.62s in when they get here. Finished up a bunch of little thisses and thats as well. I'll try to get some pictures up later this week. Oh yeah, did I mention it felt good to flame'er again?
Sounds like you are ready for ANRA next weekend??? Gonna have to slide the clutch a bit til you get that deep gear installed. And, my oh my, it is deep. If you lit it off in your driveway you probably got a bit of reverb. I'd like to hear that.
The Jalopy Journal
