Help, what brakes do I have? New to rods

Howdy.. new to rods, just baught a 28' Ford model A Tudor ratrod and the brakes are terrible. It's got (this is what the seller said) 40's ford truck brakes with early buick finned drums. Pulled them apart and the shoes were GONE and drums needed turned. So I had them turned, and got new shoes and it still doesn't stop for crap. I tried bleeding the lines over and over. Went through about 10 or so MC's full of fluid, and still getting some air bubbles in the line. My next step was to swap out the MC and the lines to make sure it's all new, then I started thinking, why not just go to disk upfront. I've read a number of threads on the HAMB about who likes what, and I keep coming back to the Speedway conversion kit. But in order to get the right one, I have to know what I've got, and I don't. I will attach some pics, and if any one has any thoughts, please please chime in. I tried to do my homework 1st, but I'm stuck. Thanks in advance.

Also, if you have any advise on why I still have air in my front left line, I'm open for suggestions. Like I said, my next step was to swap the MC and lines. I have adjusted the top and bottom cams on the backing plate to the point where they just begin to drag on the drum, so it's not my adjustment.

 

What size front bore on the new wheel cylinders? 1-1/4 or 1-3/8? The bigger is better for stopping.

Since you don't have the early type backing plates with 4 adjusters, how does the show contact pattern look? Pull one drum off if you have road driven the new shoes. If the drums are machined too far, the shoe curve won't match the bigger drum curve, and it makes for very poor stopping.

Try bleeding that one wheel this way; Get a helper, have him slowly push the pedal down half way, while you already have the bleeder open, and you have light pressure with a finger over the bleeder. Have him let the pedal come back up real slow, and repeat this till it runs clear with no air. 5 or 6 cycles should work. Do not use the old way of pumping the heck out of it, then holding it down, to then open the bleeder. That can make foam.


BTW, those are called "hot rods" on this board, not the R term. It's not a good word here

 

If you are only getting air on the left front, do you have any kind of evidence of a leak from that wheel cylinder?

If your shoe contact pattern looks ok, did you buy good quality shoes? Some el cheapos are real junk.

 

The backing plates you have are 39-41 Ford passenger car and pickup.
The spindles are 37-41 Ford passenger car and pickup.

It wouldn't hurt to measure the ID of the drums now that you had them turned. So many parts houses that turn brakes don't even measure them to see if they are out of spec before turning them, they just turn 'em smooth and let you have them.
Rule of thumb is .060 is maximum. 12" early Ford brakes mean drum should be at or below 12.060". Buick drums may have their own spec so check it out.
Over turned drums can be nigh on to impossible to adjust properly since th shoe can't reach the drum, and if it does adjust ok the first panic stop may "EGG" the drum.

 

1940 Ford brakes are not self energizing and that is NOT a good idea
go to a self energizing backing plate, I did, using 71-76 Chevy Big station wagon parts.
those are self adjusting too

 

Like manyolcars just said. I used self energizing (Bendix design) early 50's Ford Truck front backing plates with Buick drums. Think we used some Chevy truck shoes and wheel cylinders. Brakes work great! You can also get new repopped brakes from Speedway and others. I may have been lucky but they worked just fine after I finally go them adjusted...

 

Well setup those brakes should be more than strong enough to stop a light car like that, they hauled my Touring down from 100mph in the quarter with nary a scary moment.

 

Bet if you have the shoe's arced to the drum it will stop way better......another lost art.....That should be done to EVERY drum brake job....

 

After you settle the air issues, hold the shoes in the drums and see if the arcs match up.
If not you need to figure out a cure for that. These brakes should work fine on a light car.

 

To answer the ?s that I can (before I pull the drums apart again) I did have the shop arch the shoes to the drum, but I have 0 confidence they checked any specs on how much to bring them in. Shoes were relined, not replaced because I didn't have a part# to order new. I told the relineing shop they were early 40s ford truck pads and they said they would pull specs on that, doubt they did. No leaking in the brand new wheel cylinders, and I checked each threaded connection for leaks after use, all dry. During adjustment I spun the wheel and turned out the cam until it began to drag. I figure that means the shoes are at least hitting the drum and a fluid filled pedal push should do the trick, but no. I guess it's all a moot point if I've got air in the line.

F&J, I did bleed the brakes similar to that, not the pump-pump-pump release way. I got the air out of all 3 other lines with patience but the front left continues to show air. Way I see it, if you go through 5 or 6 MC's full of fluid, that's enough to drain it a few times, so to still get air means its pulling it from a leak somewhere right? Also, thanks for the tip on the R word. I will make a mental note, didn't mean any disrespect.

As for the self energizing plates Manyolcars, do those Chevy wagon parts bolt up to my 37-41 ford spindles? I really like the look of these buick fins, but I'd like the look of this car on the road instead of my garage instead. I'm all for doing the work to get what I got to work, just need to know what I'm doing.

 

I had a similar problem on a MC once, couldn't get the air out, turned out I was opening the bleed screw too far and air was getting in past the threads.
Easy to check and see, and free too.

Good luck

 

the brakes are best with soft compound shoes as well

 

Those early brakes have a procedure to adjust the heel of the shoes and the gross adjustment at the top. Check the 1937-40 Ford Service Bulletins book.

 

I like your new headache.

 

Are all the fittings tight and in good shape going to that wheel? I just ran into a similar thing on bleeding the brakes on an ot car where I had a flare fitting that wasn't sealing. The other three worked good though.

On the brakes, you aren't expecting them to work like maybe the disk brakes on your daily? We get a lot of new to rods guys now who have never driven a car with drum brakes and some of the younger ones have never driven a disk/drum car having only driven four wheel disk cars. It's a learning curve for those of us who have driven drum brakes for all of our lives when we climb back into the drum brake car after driving the disk brake car for a period of time.

 

Unless you find something wrong with the L/F wheel cylinder, I would suspect the master.

You didn't have a picture with the shoes installed. If you have unequal length linings
on the shoes, the longer one is the forward shoe. Different than people are used to with
self energizing brakes.

Like the other guys posted, there is a specific procedure for the initial adjustment to center the shoes these '39-'41 Lockheed brakes.

 

I don't expect them to work like disk, no. I've driven other old cars with drums and know squishy feeling. But these don't even stop the car at all.

I checked the flares on the fluid feed to the wc and they all look good. If they weren't sealing enough to let in air, wouldn't they also leak under pressure of a peddle depression?

Going to pull the wheels and drums off again tonight to take some measurements and pics. And see if i can get a write up on the initial adjustment for these brakes. Will post what I find. Much thanks to all those who have responded. This is a great forum with lots of knowledge. Thanks for your patience with us new guys. If it were easy, I wouldn't learn.

 

First mechanical check: Take shoes and hold them all against the inside of the drum.
If arc job is wrong, all else is futile..

 

I don't have any more suggestions for your brake issue, bud would like to see a pic or two of your HOT ROD. Red Ram Hemi power in a '28 Tudor has gotta be fun.

 

how about gravity bleeding the front wheel then pressure bleed it and see if you still get air if you do then id say you have aleak

or just replace the line going to that wheel and bleed it all again and see what happens


what is this arching the brake shoes you guys are talking about ? i have never heard this term and ive done alot of brake jobs

 

Arcing the brake shoes involves grinding the shoes to match the arc of the drum. Normally when shoes are relined, they are done to a factory spec, which assumes a certain drum inside diameter. However, as drums wear, this diameter increases. If you now take a new shoe and put it into that increased ID drum, the contact patch of the shoe is small. "Arcing" does to a new show what wear has done to the old ones, in that the arc of the shoe is ground to match the arc of the drum ID, insuring that there is full contact of the shoe to the drum friction surface.

 

Arcing is a nearly lost art because of fear of asbestos. The shoes werer mounted and then ground to proper OD, sending asbestos flying in all directions...so most shops son't do it or discuss it.
With drums that are old and that have been ground, it is pretty unlikely arc of shoes is correct, and you may have very limited actual contact. Wearing in can take forever, but it is possible to get close by hand grinding till they fit pretty well and then allowing use to finish the job.

 

Here are some pics Ebbsspeed. I've read tons of threads on the 241 RedRam Hemi, and it sounds like it's a pretty solid engine. Not the most power, but that's not what I'm going for (yet). Love it, if only I could drive it.

 

did you happen to buy that from a guy in ohio named john?

 

Sure did. You know him?

 

You may be in the wrong nightclub, the leather bar is down the street on the right.

 

I'm sure this is a dumb question, but is your bleeder screw at the top of your left wheel cylinder? If it's not you will never get the air out.

 

It is at the top, but so is the right/front bleeder on the new wc's and I got all the air out of it?

 

My '65 Buick stops fine with drums, weighs over 4,000 pounds! Disks look fuckin stupid without fenders.

 

When the OP said no brakes I knew it was the infamouse rat rod. But with a little work that can change.


Joe666,
If you are bleeding and still getting air then it is real likely that you have a leak between the master and the wheel cylinder. I would check all the joints as well as the flex line.

Those brakes are more than enough to stop your car and once you get them sorted out you will be one step closer to de-rating the rodent. Nothing like find an old rat and turning it into a jalopy.

Don't wimp out, throwing money at it won't cure it, the only cure is good mecanix.