I build a lot of rear ends in my shop, and I do a lot of ring & pinion installations for all sorts of vehicles. Probably 50 percent of the installations are on mid 60's - 70's vehicles that are being resto-modded or modified for increased performance. The ratios always end up being 3.73 - 4.11 or so, because that is what the customer wants. I always ask if an overdrive tranny is part of the equation, and the answer is usually no. I always suggest something in the lower 3's if the vehicle will see a lot of highway miles, and the response is always no. I always give the customer a test drive in a vehicle at highway speeds with a set of 3.70's to show how the vehicle will perform, and the low ratios always end up going in. A few months or even years go by and I'll get a phone call asking me if I still have the old gears because the 4.11's or whatever were too much. My question is, do you think that the lower gear ratio thing goes back to the early days of hot ridding, and is now so ingrained in the car culture that it is automatically what people think they need in their cars even if they don't know what they need? The same thing goes for 4 bolt mains, M-22's, and on and on.
i completely understand what you are saying , an old boy sold me a set of 356s w a locker for the right price for my first mustang big block car , it was a 4 speed , was fun stop light to stop light but on the highway turning 3,400-3,800 to keep up w others wasnt cutting it , soon went to a 325 , in my roadster pickup i just went w 325s and almost wish i would have went 3.00s as it will mostly see long runs , to answer your question yes i think people look at the codes their cars came w back in the day thinking i want what it had from the factory what could the prob be ? well 2 lane highways and increased speed limits the old ratios just don't cut it w out an overdrive transmision if you plan on logging miles
I think you have the answer right there. I had a stock '69 Z28 for many years. With a 4 speed and 3.73 gears it was a real pita to drive any distance, but a lot of fun in the canyons. Now I have an od auto with overdrive. Oh, how the mighty have fallen...
Back in the day a 4.11 or even 4.56 rear was the flavor of the day. So we were all wound out at 55 MPH, but from light-to-light it was a ton of fun. But we knew what we were getting into as all of our friends had hot cars and were doing the same thing. Want to cut the revs a bit, bolt on taller tires. Now with all the OD options out there, you can still go for a fairly steep ration and keep the revs down for cruising. My OT import had a 4.11 "rear" but with OD. Ii turn 1900 RPMs at 70 MPH. Bob
I understand where you are comming from. I have had fellas come to me and say they want to put 4:11s in so that can get better ETs. Problem is that their engine won't make enough revs to be going much faster than 85 in the lights. I am putting 3.5 gears in my current project, it will see mostly street time and the engine makes enough torque to pull the gear when it needs to. There are a lot of variables to consider when gearing a vehicle, normal use just being part of the equation. But getting back to it, I think you are correct. There has been an awful of 4.11:1 written in the magazines over the years. Hey while I got your attention, I was thinking about doing up a tech on setting up a rear end. But you do it way more than I do, have you considered doing a tech on the subject?
Yep, it's a combination thing. Everything has to work together. I've got 3.89's in my coupe but run an A833 O/D. Love it!!! 60mph is about 2,000 rpm. On the track I go through the lights about 113 -115 mph in third and it's pretty much ready grab fourth gear at that point.
Ha I was shooting through the lights @ 100 in second in the pusher with the 3.08. But it was too heavy to pull high gear in a quarter with that gear. great highway gear if you didn't mind cruising @ 85. There are a lot of things to consider, maybe one day I will right up a quick what runs through my mind when I am choosing gears thing. Should leave a lot of room for the equations fellas and the other fellas to let us know what they consider.
This is a timely topic. In my 62 galaxie I have a 3.00:1 open rear now and it's great with the stock 352 and a c6. I'm in the process of building a 445 fe stroker that should put out around 450 to the crank. Realistically I cruise mostly in town with a handful of 30+ mile drives to bigger shows. I was thinking a 3.50:1 locked rear would be fairly comfortably ata 65 mph cruising speed with 27 inch tall rear tires.
Depends - If you are an old street racer, the 4.11's are still the way to go. run it hard baby! But if you've gotten old and soft, then wimpy 3.0's are just right. I think some of the change to higher gears comes from new cars and what we have gotten used to. In the old days I drove a bunch of cars with low gears and drove em everywhere, everyday. But with the advent of 4, 5 and even 6 speed OD automatics, we have become so used to cars chugging along at 1500-1700 RPM on the freeway that anything higher just seems like too much, like we're revving the piss out of it. Back in the 60's and 70's our rule of thumb for a good street and strip compromise was what we called 2 to 1 - it meant that at 3500 we would be doing 70 MPH, and we kind of based everything off of that. Now days it seems if you are turning 3500 on the highway guys are afraid they are going to blow it up! I also think the new multiple OD 's are why cars are lasting so many more miles.
I hear ya! I drive & when I blew up my 3:73 in my chevelle, I went to 3:08 & never looked back. Shit, it gets 23mpg with a 4speed The problems comes when you want to burn rubber, but thats a problem for heavier cars, these little 1/2 to 2/3 the wieght cars . . . Keep it at 3:25 max. anything more is overkill. Unless your drag racing.
I cannot imagine running 3:08s in a hot rod or street rod... Those would be the first thing to go.... For me, with 22 to 28 inch tall tire 3:73 is the best... Now for the cold hard facts. Each gear bump gets you 300 rpms either way. SO, if you go from 3:73 to 3:08 your getting a 600 rpm shut down. To me it isnt worth the performance loss. Couple that with todays OD trannys. 4:10 may be best, but 3:73 becomes a highway gear. I have bent alotta drive shafts with 3:08s, and whether I turn 1700 or 2000 rpms on the freeway isnt going to yeild much MPG to worry about. ( if thats what your worried about) AT the track, I run a C4 behind a 351, and a 28 inch tall tire, I started with 4:10s and could almost do the 1/4 in 2 gears, so I went to 4:56, and cross at 7400..... 300 rpm's, per ratio change is all you gain. Most people over compensate for their TQ converter with gears, when they may be better of going to an 1800 or 2000 stall converter, just make sure your turning enough R's on the freeway to keep it locked or you will heat up the tranny...
A buddy has a 69 or 70 torino, he has a close ratio 4 speed, and 4:56 locker, he has stock rims and tires, 428 engine. He says he is going to change them to 4:11..... He drives it alot, and another guy has a couger eliminator with a 429 same tranny, and 4:11 same tire size, and he has run this combo for years with out issue...
I think is is largely due to the mindset that if a little bit is good a lot must be better. I fell into that trap with my 27. When I built the new 331 stroker motor for it I wanted to take advantage of the new power and the cam so I went with 4.30 gears. I absolutely LOVE them around town but HATE them on the highway. I am cranking 3500 at 70 mph whereas my old 3.70 gears were well below 3000. I ran 4.88's in my 68 Mustang, but rarely went on the highway with it, just drove it around town. My 23 had 3.00 gears and I thought it would be a dog when I built it but those were actually about perfect. It still drove great around town, had lots of power, and was a joy on the highway. I got at least 25 mpg and actually got 30 mpg one trip. The rpu I am building now has high 2's in the rear now and I will see how that runs before I decide if I want to go lower or not. Don
That and it's probably been a long time since they've driven a car that doesn't have overdrive. 3.73s were great when the speed limit was 55
3.55's in my 55 Chevy with a th350, 2500 stall, healthy 350 engine focused more on mid range and top end power. Could be a little livelier down low, but I wouldn't trade the driveability and highway manners.
All this "Traditional" crap that we're into didn't have freeway at the time. Now we have freewys, lets gear up, or gear down so to speak.
4:10 gear was almost ok when Gas was $1.10 a gallon or less. I had a 4:88 gear in my 63 Impala in 69, no big deal then, now I'll be happy with 2300 to 2500 at 70 but hate OD automatics. GM 5 speed from a pick up in my latest project!
Let me ask this, I pulled a 78 camaro rear for my 54, has a PJ code, which shows a 2:41 ratio. What trans would this have been coupled with? Going to be running a turbo 350 trans, so i was looking at maybe switching to something in the 336 range. Does that sound a little more "criuser" friendly?
The late 70s GM cars had three speed automatics, and those really long gears. That's why they started using lockup torque converters (a few years before overdrive automatics came along). The gearing helped them make cars that met federal mileage standards. It took a while till they got them to go fast and get good mileage.
Back in the 50s,60s,and early 70s gas was real cheap Low gears were no big deal. Now with the high price of gas things are different. I remember in my 1970 Camaro SS, pulling into a remote gas station to get gas and the pump price was 43 cents for hi test and pulling out cuz gas was too high at that station. HA Ha lol. Ago
The price of gas is about the same now as it was then relative to most everything else...a new camaro costs ten times as much now, too
Back in the 50s,60s,and early 70s gas was real cheap Low gears were no big deal. Now with the high price of gas things are different. I remember in my 1970 Camaro SS, pulling into a remote gas station to get gas and the pump price was 43 cents for hi test and pulling out cuz gas was too high at that station. HA Ha lol. Ago
Non over drive automatic would have been in front of a 2:41 Those are really nice freeway gears, little sluggish off the line unless your motor is built for lots of low end torque. 3:36 would be a nice compromise for gears but you need to know your operating RPM range and stay in the sweet spot RPM wise. Use a gear calculator and make your decisions.
i dont want to hijack this thread so if you want me to start a new one just say so. but my 58 willys has a timkin axle. my axle has something like 5.38 gears! which is great if i was gona pull a tree down everyday. i am rebuilidng the orginal stright 6 and am going to reuse the 3 spd (t-90), at least for now; i have a 4 spd i want to put in it one of these days. im lookin at doing a swap front and rear. i cannot find any different gears for this axle. so i think im gona need to swap the whole thing. i want to crusie with traffic. 65 - 70 maybe a bit more if i could but its not necessary. right now i get like 45 with out running the old girl to death. i think i have a set of axles lined out with something in the 4's but i need to crawl under and take a look (maybe this weekend) i am not positive but i think they are dana 44's . any way my question is what would be a really good gear ratio for me to go after when the time comes? ahhh. i ment to include tire size. im runnin 31x10.5-15's. i live in the flat lands thanks for the help.
Ahhh.... the golden days of youth. Holley double pumper, 4 speed and 4:11 gears. Just like in the magazines.
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