Paintjob went wrong - Need advice - Pic Heavy

My thoughts as someone in the "Business" of restoration.

#1. If you have a contact stating what is do be done and a price then that's the way the car should be delivered. No questions.

#2. As a potential customer, you have a duty to yourself to look at all of the information. If a shop says that they will take your car all the way down to metal, do body work, prime, block, paint and buff in 6 weeks, then you need to do your own math. 6 weeks is 240 hours. 4000 dollars divided by 240 hours is 16.67/hr shop rate. If you thought about it, how would that seem possible? Unless you think that one person could do all of the above in 60 hours (a week and a half thus giveing a realistic shop rate), you ignored basic common sense. Even with above contract, you should expect the worst.

#3. A person in the business of restoration knows that he is going to find things he didn't know about once the car is taken down to bare metal. Any "real" contract should state that one the car was in bare metal, the customer, would be called in and an assesment of repairs and costs would be made at that point. This would be added to the original estimate. I haven't met the guy who can see through paint and filler and give acurate estimates as to what's really underneath.

#4. As a lesson to others - beware the guy who can quote a price before he starts the job. There should always be an agreed upon price to find out what condition the car is really in. From a bare metal stage, you should be able to get a fairly accurate estimate.

I think that the OP signed a contract that was too good for the amount of work described.

If I need my house re-shingled and I get quotes in the 5-8K range, do I go with the guy who offered the same sevice at 3K? Probably not. Contract or not, I know there's a reason he has a lower price. End result - I'm getting boned. In this economy the lowballer needs the cash to keep the buisness going. If something goes wrong, does he have any of my money that I can recoupe? Prolly not.

Bottom line to me - OP should get what he signed up for. It would probably put the body shop out of business but that's not his problem. A contract was signed. OP should do more homework before choosing a shop. Basic math tells you that this contract cannot work in anyone's favor. It's a loose/loose proposition.

 

It's easy to armchair quarterback the deal now, but how does that help the OP get his car fixed?

Seems to me he has two choices, small claims court to get back what he can in cash, and either add that to the war fund to get the car done right, or take the cash to buy materials and start in on it. He doesn't want to sell it and he darn sure doesn't want to just park it.

I have to say tho, given the pics and the information in his posts, his only REAL choice is to tear it down and start over, there's too much poor work and damage to leave it the way it is, it's just going to get worse, quickly.

 

Big red flag is when he bid the job in someone elses primer.

What if he stripped the body & then called you for another 2 grand for hidden problems? Would you have paid it?

What exactly does the contract say- word for word?

I had an OT car painted about 10 years ago. Had a contract that basically spelled out stripping to metal as required, prime, sand, paint my color code of choice, clear, cut & buff. Reassemble & line up gaps, install glass.

Job went to shit- it was a 20 footer like the OP's. Took the guy to small claims- armed w/ hundreds of photos & my contract. Problem was- judge saw it as a non car guy- it was yellow & white to him & actually told me I was being nit-picky. Looked great to him. I had letters from friends, other shops- didn't help one bit. Car was primed & painted like contract says. Doors fit ok- what did I expect for a 50 year old car? Panel gaps didn't rub each other, glass was installed- I was out for a free paint job.

So- in the end, I ate it. I lived with it for 2 years & then stripped the car to metal myself (lots of liquor involved that weekend) & paid another shop to make it right.

I don't use collision shops for paint- I'm way too picky.

I'm there all during the job inspecting the progress. I have yet to find a shop that doesn't want me there.

No bids- ever. Time & material is the only way I go for paint. I make progress payments weekly until done- no down payment.


Have the guy fix it if he will or cut your losses & find someone else who can.

 

I'd be curious to see a scan of that contract, even if the names were deleted.

 

There's a couple things to look for in having any type job shop work done, regardless of whether its paint work, fab work, machine work, upholstery, or whatever.

First thing is to find out whether the shop gets the work out the door in a reasonable time or not. Shops that lollygag around on work and stop on a big job everytime something comes in that'll give them a quick couple hundred bucks worth of pocket money will almost never be profitable shops for one simple reason. They waste too much time. Shops that aren't profitable seldom do good work for the exact reason the OP ran into. They stall and diddlefart around, end up with all the money burned up and half the work done, and complete the rest of the job with paint 'n bake quality. Even if a shop quotes a reasonable and competitive price for the work, and not some wildass lowball guess, they'll still end up with far less profit if they're in the habit of letting the work sit around while they piddle with it off and on for months.

Obviously, getting the work out the door is no guarantee of quality work, but its a step in the right direction compared to the ones where cars become antiques while waiting for the work to get done.

Another red flag IMO is anyone who wants money up front. Progress payments are normal for any sort of extensive work, regardless of the field, but up front money is a another sign of someone operating on a shoestring like others have mentioned. Likely he needs that money to make last week's payroll or to buy materials for that last car that's not quite gotten done before the money ran out.

Someone mentioned 1/3 up front, another 1/3 when its half done, and the last third on completion as a good rule of thumb. So, the shop starts out way ahead of the customer money-wise, and then has some "halfway" point that's subject to a lot of interpretation where another third gets paid, and the shop is still ahead money-wise even if the work really is half way complete.

The payments would vary according to the individual job, but for this one something like the following would seem fair to both parties while keeping the shop interested in getting the job done.

20% when they've got it in bare metal. Jambs and everything else that's been agreed on, and not just the quick and easy stuff.

another 30% when all the metal work is done and visible for inspection

another 25% when its ready for paint

and the final 25% on completion

Something like this gives the owner an opportunity to see what's going on at various stages, like "did it really go to bare metal as agreed to?" And it gives the shop owner an opportunity to renegotiate based on anything that was hidden when the original quote was made, but not the opportunity to renegotiate simply because he was too dumb to know what the job was worth when he quoted it.

I've never paid anyone to paint a car because I'm one of those wierd types who actually enjoys doing paint prep work. But, if I was shopping, I'd be looking for half a dozen references on work of a similar scope, and not just a couple hand picked ones the guy may parade out where he's painted a car starting with perfect sheetmetal. The OP's pics indicate this clown is a total hack when it comes to metalwork, and if the metalwork is bad then it really doesn't matter what he can or can't do past that point. Looks to me like he oughta invest a few hundred bucks in an airless rig and specialize in painting barns.

 

Yeah, I'd like to hear him explain the craftsmanship shown in each one of those pics too.

Shit work speaks for itself, and this job is screaming in case you didn't notice.

 

I went through a similar mess last year, it was the first paint job I've had done in 10 years and it's the last one I don't do myself. I say take him to court and put a lien on anything of his you can. The guy has already taken 4 grand of your money, 6 months away from your car and blown you off twice, get off the hamb and over to the court house.

 

I'm about to get my Merc painted and live in Tenn. sooo what city do you live in or what city did you get the car painted in? Don't need his name just where he is located. I'll take it from there.

 

Do yourself a favor, and take it to earl shieb and by that I mean Mike

 

Total raw deal for sure...I expect to spend around 4-5k for my paint and body work by the time I'm all done and my body is junk(full of bad body work). I can tell you that my body guy would never let my car leave his shop looking like that (I've seen him take it in the ass over his pricing before and he always makes it right).

Now you need to get over there with the car on a trailer and hash this shit out! If he won't make it right, then do what others have said and show the shit out of it this summer and advertise his name all over it! Procede with the law suit(or atleast the threat).
I'd agree with the person who said he was obviously a better painter than body man. So maybe ask for a deal in where you get a little reimbusment for some of the body work, then take it to a good sheetmetal guy and get it prepped, then let him paint it.

Either way let us know who he is...Either he makes it good and looks good on a major hotrod website, or bails and looks like a jack ass! Make sure he finds out you've spread his name and I'd bet he'll try to make it right!

Like I said don't give him the chance to bail again, get it on a trailer and show up un anounced!

 

Hi, I read the first few pages and some of the middle, so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone, but I wanted to chime in because so many people are telling you to take it to small claims court.

I'm an attorney here in Maryland. I'll be honest, if you're only into it for 2,000 (which is what I believe you said in your OP) it's probably not worth it to try to take it to small claims court. You'll invest a lot of time an effort to get what is a relatively small judgment and then you'll spend a lot more time trying to enforce the judgment against someone who is so flaky he couldn't even show up for multiple planned meetings. The odds are, you'll never end up getting any money out of it and it'll be more hassle than it's worth.

Feel free to PM me if you want and we can chat a bit more. I can't officially offer you legal advice because it wouldn't be covered by my malpractice insurance, but I can tell you, even as a lawyer, I would not pursue this in court. I might write an official sounding letter to see if I could get him to make it right. Perhaps even go so far as to threaten legal action.

There are 3 potential things that could happen as I see it:

(1) You threaten and he does nothing and tells you to screw off.
(2) He offer to do the repair and redo the whole thing.
(3) He refunds some money to you for the shoddy work.

Option 1 seems most likely regardless of scenario. Option 3 seems extremely unlikely given that it appears he was trying to cut corners and costs. That leaves Option 2. As you've already pointed out, you're not sure if you want to try to get him to make it right because it involves giving your car back to him.

At this point, I'd probably just eat the loss. Leave the car as is for now with what is an imperfect, but not horrible looking paint job and start saving for a higher quality body resto/paint job from a guy with more credentials.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

 

Here's a little perspective :
(Holy crap this was longer than I expected)
back in 1987 (25 years ago) I had a car in a body shop. Here's a little history prior to that day.
My buddy worked there and I had been stopping there for two years prior to that. It was a collision shop but I always looked at and admired the pics on the wall of all the classics the owner had done. After a year or so of saying hello to the owner, i felt comfortable enough and started BSing with him about stuff, cars, bikes, broads, and drinking beer. That goes on for another 6 months and I ask him if he would be interested in looking at my car for a perfect show quality paint job, black. I had all if the mechanicals done and to that level of finish. He said he would love to see it just because but wasn't sure if he wanted to do it.

My car was presentable and certainly nothing to be ashamed of but it had a few dings, some thin spots with red primer showing thru and not as flat as it should be. The stainless needed polished and the Chrome needed redoing.

I had taken the car up there and he was more excited about doing it than I was. It had been so long since he had got to do what he loved. I told him I had no idea what that level of work would cost but I wanted it perfect, no excuses, and first place trophies. He said it would be hard to estimate that exactly but he would be willing to look it over in detail and let me know. I explained to him that I need some sort of ball park to even determine if I could do it. He said to figure on $ 4,000.00 for a ballpark, put an extra 1000.00 on the side to cover unexplained happenings and that what ever new emblems, trim work, Chrome work would be extra. When I asked him how long it would take he said 6 months to a year unless I paid faster that the insurance companies.

Turns out my front clip was clean and needed no work, doors were too far gone for show so I needed some southern ones so no work on those, and the rear quarters needed the most massaging, but in the end the panel between the deck lid and convertible top caused him the most grief. BY no work I mean welding, metal finishing, or dents. Skim bolck prime and blocking for ever.

He refinished every surface on that car. In side the trunk, deck lid, under the hood, inner fenders, door jambs front grilles, taillight bezells, dash, interior doors, seat pans, console, pontiac ralley II wheels, and the entire outside. I.stalled a new windshield and all new weather stripping. It was up to me to Reassemble the car except for several pieces of stainless. Some of that wasn't included in the original ballpark.

I stopped by every Friday with 300.00 and a case of beer. Some times he told me to keep the money because he didn't even look at my car but I made him take it anyway. Is say well next week you might have time to work on it twice as much.

He had it done in about 5 months, exactly when I finished paying him. Because
on some weeks I did pay faster than the insurance companies. I got exactly what I wanted was happier than I could ever imagine, took home a 3 foot tall trophy first time out and a truckload of others.

He got more of the same work from my car and quite a reputation at that time.
The insurance adjusters visiting his shop got to see the quality and gave him the classic collision work they came across too.

4000.00 25 years ago on a basically clean car, Other than swapping door guts. The stuff I added was a few hundred bucks.

 

Looks like you need another shop.All that can be fixed,,,,Thats why I do it myself....It takes hours and years

 

true that.

I do this on the side now,not as a full time gig (used to have a shop did some collision work, but mostly hot rods). my rates are much lower than "official" shops, but my prices are always time an materials. Based on experience and what I can see I'll give you a rough estimate at the beginning, but especially when panel work is inlcuded it's just a reference point.

 

I've studied on this and this is what I've figured out. I honestly don't believe that shop would have given you a good job for 3 times the money. Most of the shit in the pictures could have been done better by somebody who had 6 months experience. I'd just be glad you didn't have a contract for $6000 because I think you would have gotten the same job, you would just be out another $2000. This guy obviously doesn't give a rat's ass about customer satisfaction. Cut your losses, advertise all you can for him and try to redo it later on when you can afford it. You might take a day or two off from work and go park it next to his shop and when customers pull up shout out and ask them to come look at some of this guy's work you just had done. He might be willing to give you some refund to get you to leave him alone. When I say next to his shop I mean it will have to be on another person's property so you don't get the law called on you. GOOD LUCK, hope you get it straightened out.

 

I'd call him up and tell him to suck it.Then drive the car through his front door.

 

There's a huge difference in doing a job for the money or doing it because you love it and it's your passion. I'll give you one guess what the craftsman that did this job was in it for. Cut your losses and learn a new skill set.

 

I have been thinking about this thread and will reiterate what I stated earlier.

There will be nothing to gain from taking him to court! I will bet that if you knew the shop owner's whole story that the business is in trouble. There may be marital problems, which may have played into him not coming to see you (out to dinner to work things out and the interruption was a source of friction), and are draining the business finances.
New jobs are a source of immediate capital, so he keeps taking them. The whole thing is spinning out of control.

The owner probably loved cars and is a good bodyman. He no longer has time to do the work because of the time it takes to make the bids, take care of other business, and to hang around with all his buddies that come to visit. Now the work is done by whatever help he can get. Many types of businesses are run by persons that love the work but should not be running a business because they lack training and discipline to manage one.

Try one more time to talk the the owner face to face. Speak to him as you do to us. Tell him the car history and what it means to you. Express your dissatisfication without slapping him in the face. Don't threaten him, just ask him what he thinks should be done to rectify the problems.
If that all fails then move forward with working with your friends to take care of the problem areas. Your main focus should be to get the car on the road. The problem areas on the car can be repaired without redoing the whole paint job.

Also, the contract you wrote probably stated that you would pay the balance only when you were happy with the work. You obviously paid the remainder to pick the car up, implying the work was satisfactory. That would imply that the bodyshop fulfilled their end of the contract.

~Alden

 

Depending on how much or little you paid for the work and what your contract says, that's the info I would use before deciding whether to take him to court or not.

 

Man I feel for you. This kind of crap is way too common in this hobby. At this point, I think you should take the guy to court and get what ever money you can out of him. Having him do more work is pointless. His work and ethics aren't up to par. If you want a nice paint job, you're going to have to start completely over. Get what money back you can, and put it towards someone who will do it right. I know a guy here in Florida that will do it right if you want to PM me. He's honest and has integrity... something that is very rare these days. Good luck with your project. Hopefully something good will come out of it.

Mark

 

The responses (as expected) are all over the board. Sue, dont sue, drive it, eat it, suck it, sell it, fuk it, let him fix it, or do it yourself. My mindset is this right now. I dont want him fixing anything honestly. I think my friends can do better fixing it and I can do it at my house, my time. This car has been in my family since my parents were dating, hell I coulda been made in this car for all I know. My dad and I restored it somewhat in the 90's and I drove it in high school. Car will never be sold, my son will get it one day.

My folks with my car back in the day






What would it take to be happy and move on, my answer at this point would

• Enough money back to cover the additional paint needed to paint/clear the parts he didnt paint
  
• Money to cover fixing paint/clear that needs to be fixed
  
• The $400 paid to have glass done, that has to be removed and redone by another shop. I dont think I want the same shop redoing it for free, they failed at first attempt, why try again.
  
• Money to cover paint/clear/materials needed to repaint and seam seal the roof the color it was supposed to be.

Then I could swallow this much easier and drive what I have till it falls off.

Many wanted to know what i had in the contract. This is what I typed up in a document and had signature and date lines for us both, which we both signed with a witness, albeit was his wife.

This was also all written out in his formal letterhead work order with prices, payment schedule, date of completion, and all of this listed below which we both signed and dated. So basically, I have 2 statements of work signed by us both.

As far as taking the entire car to bare metal, that was all verbal, not in the contract anywhere, I didnt think to add that. But it was stated by him that he was doing that and would never paint over someone elses work, especially because the last shop sprayed it in lacquer primer.

1956 Ford Mainline Paintjob


 Hood

• Repair fiberglass lip and any rust areas
• Repair “shaved” area and address patch as needed underneath hood
• Strip/Clean/Paint underneath and insulate
• Install new cowl lacing (I will provide)
• Install new hood rubber bumpers (I will provide)

 Trunk

• Cutout and repair rusted areas in trunk lid
• Clean underneath, paint, insulate trunk lid
• Sandblast and Repair trunk floor patch panel
• Paint all trunk area inside
• Install new trunk seal (I will provide)

 Doors

• Clean and rust treat inside doors
• Clean up and fix door drain holes
• Clean/lube rollers and related parts for windows
• Repair armrest holes in door (to big)
• Install new door seals (I will provide)
• Install new door locks, handles and seals (I will provide)

 Windows

• Remove all glass for paintjob
• Clean/lube rollers and related parts for windows (I will provide new parts as needed)
• Reinstall all glass, seals, felt, weatherstrip, etc. (I will provide new seals, felt, and other parts where needed, possibly new front windshield)

• Repair passenger fender patch panel that was welded in
• Seam seal the drip rail
• Replace bushings and hinge pins on door hinges (I will provide)

Paint Job Specifics

 PPG Deltron Paint (matched to any color chosen)
 Minimum of 3-4 coats of PPG Deltron for good coverage
 Minimum of 3 coats of PPG clear
 Jambs, hinges, etc all to be painted and clear coated to match
 Buffed

 

That's at least 300+ hrs of labor to do a "nice" job you could be happy with. Add another 150 for "perfect" work. He's obviously not qualified to estimate fabrication and restoration/service on cars of this era. That, or he has the TV mentality and thinks it's all easy. Either way, math isn't his strong suit. All Deltron materials are VERY expensive here in Motown. Your color alone is somewhere north of $300gal, and the clear is at $200 per gallon "package". Forget metal, shop supplies, filler, primer etching chemicals, fasteners, sealants...

No matter what, as a pro in this game for nearly 40yrs, I'd suggest you save it the best you can, seal and refinish the roof to your color, and chalk it up to having learned more about a collector car's finishing needs. Your color isn't immpossible to match, and after a couple weeks you'll have what you want and get some miles on it. Sad as it is, some folks have no respect for this stuff and don't have any desire to learn what it take to excell at it. I left a recent employer over the same practices. Imagine someone wanting to do this type of work on 6 figure cars. I won't bore you with the details. For 1/2 again as much and a little sweat equity you can salvage the job, and the sooner this is behind you the better off you'll be. Fuck the courts and lawyers as they'd most likely want you to leave it as is until it's settled, and that's not a fast process. Ask him for some $$$$ back and you'll handle it. If says fuck off, be sure to tell everyone you know the truth. Don't embellish, tell it like it is and move on. Your only hope for a happy ending...

 

what he said /\ /\ /\ best advice I've read

 

Dude, I feel bad about your whole deal! Now for the sad reality of this whole deal... Did you get ripped off? No, you got exactly what you paid for. Is 4k a lot of money? Yes it is, but not when it comes to paint work. Paint is always a time and material deal, that's just the way it is. If you actually went to the paint store at got everything you needed (sandpaper, bondo, tape, masking paper, primer, reducers, paint, clear, catalyst, etc.... and you'll use waaaay more than the minimum on your prep stuff) your bill will be in the neighborhood of $2000! Paint stuff is way expensive and you need LOTS of stuff! When I built my dad's El Camino I spent $2500 on materials and that was over 3 yrs. ago! That leaves $2000 for labor (we'll use 30 bucks an hour shop rate for someone who likes working for free) which comes to a total of 66 hours to do your car! I'm pretty freakin' good at what I do, but you can't get much done in 66 hrs! The car should have been stripped to bare metal and started from scratch, then you would have had a better idea which way to go. That car needed a few hundred hours to make nice (I'm not talking first class show car either) and be finished the right way. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but that is the reality of paint jobs!

 

I have to respectfully disagree....CT had a specific contract, listing specific tasks, and they weren't performed. It would be different(and you would be right) if all tasks were performed in a poor manner...but CT didn't get what he paid for, imho.

 

I totally agree BUT.....


Let me throw this analogy out.

The current rate for mowing a lawn in my hood is 25.00. Some guys quote 20.00 and some quote 30.00 or more. If a guy offers to mow my lawn for 15.00 or less, then I expect to get a lower quality job from this particular guy. Is he going to use the leaf blower to his advantage and blow the clippings onto the street or is he going to actually take the time to pick them up. You get what you pay for. If I hire the cheapest guy to do my lawn then I know that it comes with baggage. I deal with the baggage on my own because I made the choice to hire this lawn company. Do I check out his references? NO. He's mowing grass.

FWIW, I do my own grass because I like it done my way.

When you get into something that you want to sublet out(grass or bodywork) be smart about it. The cheapest price is just that for a reason. As a consumer you have a duty to do your homework. In my opinion, the homework was not done. Although you have a "contract" and the other party should be held to the terms, I still maintain that Op signed a contract that was a fail from the start.

 

I am pretty sure the OP stated that he had talked to several paint shops and some were more and some less expensive. Nowhere did he say he went for the cheapest. He certainly didn't get 4 grand worth of honest work.

 

I think you're being kinda picky.



Just kidding, that sucks.
You got a raw deal.