Factory standard shift for 60-64 Olds full size? I need some help

I never knew there was an Olds standard shift past 1959, and the newest I ever saw in person was 57. Have you guys ever seen a 60's one in person?

The 50s cars have the pedals below the floor, and the 60s went to underdash swing pedals, and I am unfamiliar with the swing type pieces.

I will be trying to convert a 61-62 A/T car to standard when I find a decent one, and have quite a few of the parts to do it, if I can figure out how it all fits. I can put up pics later today of what I have so far.

Does anybody know anything about those years, or what year did they stopped doing std shift? ..and did they use the older Selector shift transmissions in the early 60's?

Would Pontiac have used the same pedals and transmission type? Thanks

 

While I have never seen a full size Olds with stick in those years, the Hollander manual shows them. Only 3 speeds from 59 -63, 4 speed available in 64.

The 4 speed was Hollander # 536 Muncie 64 -65 Olds, Tempest, Pontiac 65
3 speed 59 -63 # 373k The 373 trans is Olds and Buick fron 51 up 63
The k suffix is 59 - 63 Olds
3 speed 64 # 533 Olds 54 -65 J88, f8564 =65

 

Great start, oldolds.

Interesting about the "3 speed 59 -63 # 373k The 373 trans is Olds and Buick fron 51 up 63" listed in your book.

The older Olds 3 speeds had a slip yoke on the tailshaft to maybe 56 or 57?, because I just got a 57 Olds 3 speed with a bolted-on yoke, which is needed for a two-piece drive shaft?

I suppose it might be the same transmission interchange except for the threaded hole on the tailshaft to make an early one fit in a later car with 2-piece driveshaft?



Does your book give any flywheel years? Thanks!

 

Reading the 3rd Edition of The Standard Catalog of American Cars, one can surmise that a manual transmission was standard equipment on 88 Series models as late as 1963.

Under the heading "Options" for 1961 models, is the following statement..."Hydra-matic was standard on all Classic Ninety-Eights, optional on all other models for $231."

For 1960 models, the following ...."Jetaway Hydra-Matic Drive, optional 88s only $231)"

For 1959 models, the following..."The Jetaway Hydra-Matic was standard on all Ninety-Eight models, optional on all other series"

For 1958 models, the following..."A three speed manual transmission was standard on all cars in the Eighty-Eight and Super Eighty-Eight series. The Jetaway Hydra-Matic was standard on all Ninety-Eights, optional on all other models."

No such comments appear for 1962 models. However, for 1963 models, it states..
"The Ninety-Eights and Starfires came with Hydra-Matic as standard equipment. All others were fitted with three speed manual transmissions as standard equipment."

For 1964 it gets a bit murkier as that is when the mid-size cars were intro'd and the transmissions fitted are not as clearly seperated from the full size cars.


Ray

 

Thanks Ray. I was just thinking about an old post from Heathen. I thought he said there was an odd Muncie? 3 speed on the early 60's full size, but I don't know for sure if he said Olds or maybe it was just Pontiac.


I bring that up because of oldolds book listing "The k suffix is 59 - 63 Olds ".
As I said, the 57 trans I have is a bolt on yoke, so it seems that was started around 57?, so I wonder about the changes to the K version in 59-63?

 

The thing is, the Buicks and Olds (and Pontiac) from way back (late 30's) used two similar, but different "sized" manual trans....the "5 bolt top cover" and the heavier duty "6 bolt top cover", depending on which engine they were fitted to, and they DO NOT interchange. Further, the Buicks were all torque tube, while the Olds units I have seen (owned one from 1955) are open drive. The main case and internals appear to be the same, but the output shaft and tailhousings differ according driveshaft style used.

I have no credible information about what manual trans Olds utilized in the early 60's.

Ray

 

The Hollander only gives "exact fit", The basic trans may be the same, the suffix is the "exact fit" Parts inside the trans might fit. Sometimes it will tell you that a part fits ,but. IE. you might have to change a tailshaft housing. There were no such notes on these trans.

Now the flywheel problem.
Hollander # 179 1957 - 60
23 1961
47 1962
321 1964 j88, Olds 65-66 f85 64-66 v-8
253 1963-64

I am assuming the j88 model was the Jetstar models that used the 330 engines, which are not what you want.

 

A local fellow had a 64 Jetstar 1 with three on the tree. It was later owned by Jack Thomas here on the h.a.m.b. . You might P.M. Jack, maybe he remembers some of the details. The original owner, Ray, said he wished he would have spent the extra cash and got the 4 speed. I think he tore up some tranny's with the 394.

 

I am a bit young for these years of Olds. I was born on 59. My father has been a mostly Olds guy his whole life. His cousin was an Olds dealer from 1955 till they stopped making them. I spent a lot of my youth in the dealership. But I only really remember the mid sixty cars and newer, as new cars
My understanding is that in those years they could not stock a stick shift car. Oldsmobile said it was not allowed. Sticks were order only.

 

Great info, guys.


Now I am scratching my head on the flywheels.

I need to find out when the 394 came out? Tony ID'ed my flywheel as "394", but I know there was a newer version of the 371 that came out in 59 till when?, as the cheapie motor?

It looks like that new 371, used the 57-58 371 counterbalanced flywheel that sort of looks like a 54-56 one, but the 394 uses a smaller, heavier one that I just got.

But that listing shows a 61-only and a 62 only? Good grief. and no listing for 63?


Let me spread out the pedal and linkage parts today for some pics. I could use some guesses on how it all fits. These parts are all unused, bought back in the 60s? by an Olds addict who has since passed away. I assume that the stick parts were impossible to find in a junkyard, even back then? otherwise, it would have been so much easier to grab a complete setup from a real stick car IMO.

 

I have never seen a stock Olds bellhousing that would fit to a 4 speed; the only ones I have are 50 LaSalle type, and the 51-up style.

Yes, I will contact him as I get deeper into the swap. I'd never find the column linkage for the 3sp, but I want a floor shift anyways.

 

Frank

I've done the auto to stick conversion In a 60 Olds

One thing I remember when seeking out to stock clutch linkage parts, was that they never made a power brake manual trans car.
The stock clutch linkage interferes with the brake booster

Tony

 

I had looked at a '62 Olds 88 years back that had a 4-speed in it. The owner said that he swapped in Pontiac pedals, etc. Looked quite factory too.

Bob

 

Thanks Tony; that helps. I am seeing what you mean, by trying to run the link up the back of the head. I believe the heavy/bulky bracket gets bolted to the outside of the firewall, instead of under dash.

I'll take some pics.


The lower Z bar is similar from 50-57, the one down by the starter. The 60s one however seems to need 2 heavy counteracting springs to make the clutch softer. I hope you can help with my pics of those.

There are 2 new springs in the box, and that 60s Z bar gained one more slotted anchor for a second spring.

So far, I am missing one clevis yoke it seems.

trying to mock up the top firewall Z bar right now. The pedal pushrod must have gone straight through the firewall, to that upper Z.

 

I have a stock Olds bellhousing and clutch setup from a 59 or 60, think it was on a 371. No pedals or anything. The orig cast iron bellhousing is set up for a small pattern trans, not like a std GM Muncie pattern. The input bearing hole is smaller like the older trans have. I believe the trans pattern is the same as the LaSalle type trans have, but never verified this for sure. I do not have the stock trans, just the bellhousing and clutch parts. My understanding is the stock trans was a 3 speed, and it had a real strange shifter linkage. Sorry I can't give more details as the parts are in storage and I am going from memory; I can't see them directly now. I bought the parts to use behind a 60 394.

Per oldolds reply above about flywheels, the 57-60 all use the same, so that means my flywheel should be fine for use behind my 394, correct? My 394 was originally hooked to a controlled coupling hydramatic in a 60 Super 88, which I have confusion if this is the same trans as a Jetaway. I think the Slim Jim is a different version used 61-64? Sorry for the added confusion, just rambling on here. Terry

 

I know at least in 62 the only Olds cars that came with a 3 speed had the 394 2bbl engine only. Most of those were fleet purchases like police, taxis and company cars, which by '62 Olds was getting out of. I'd always like to have seen one with a Catalina like 4 speed and dual quad setup on a 394.

I can PM you a good 62 Olds candidate.

 

38chevy; I can't help with if it will work, but Tony should be able to.


Ok, here are some pics of trying to figure it out. First pic with spare pieces on floor; those are different year Olds brackets that hold the Z-bar to the lower starter bell. The new spare one fits a 394 pattern, it's different.

The lower Z bar has two notched arms for return springs, but I have no clue where the springs anchor to? To holes in the frame, or some brackets?

I think I have the long verticle rod correct? The clevis yoke is missing, and I'd think that adjustment clevis, should be up top like that? not upside down?


Also, see the 2 pics of the new clutch pedal; that pedal hangs on an add-on underdash bracket I assume(the rusty bracket). But that bracket has only one large hole for the pedal pivot pin that is also missing. However exactly opposite from the big hole, is a small hole with a nut welded on the backside that you can't see. I wonder if the big pin, is actually a long shaft bolt, with very stepped down threaded end to fit that nut?

Also, I thought the thick angle bracket near the pedal was for the dual spring mount, but it is the pedal bump stop bracket.

One pic shows me holding up the upper Z bar and brace, which I first thought, was supposed to be under the dash. Now it makes sence when Tony said no room for P/B, so it must go outside like that.


Well, from not having a car here to test fit, I am thinking that the entire clutch pedal and swing brackets/braces, are completely stand alone, and do not tie into the brake cluster at all?

**I will add an underdash A/T pic here in a few minutes that I have.**

 

Here is a pic of a A/T brake pedal. I guess the clutch setup does not connect to that hanger at all?


Forgot to say: That pedal pushrod must go straight through the firewall and connect to the left outer side of the bracket I am holding up? And then the boot covers the pushrod.

 

I dont think it will work on what your trying to do maybe i need to have that car with my 1 of my B&M`s and 371

 

I am probably wrong but the clutch gear should work from a 442. maybe have to tweak it a little.

 

Benno, I have plenty of Olds clutch things to fit a early or late setup. F/wheels, plates, discs, bells, forks,transmissions, etc

I'm just not sure if I am doing the 60s linkage correctly, without me ever seeing a real one. The older ones in the 50s, I do know some details of, because they are pedals that go through the floor, which are much easier for me to understand.

 

Well, I should have shown the firewall end of the dash bracket and you guys would have figured it out quick.

The clutch pedal ass'y is not a stand alone...the brake pedal goes up inside of that new brace...duh on me.

That new under dash support brace actually replaces the old A/T brake pedal mount. It gets tossed.

I made a quickie temporary upper clevis for the verticle pull rod, and used a piece of 5/8" shaft for a temporary clutch pedal pivot. Then mocked the whole thing to a 57 motor.

..and now you can see what Tony said about no P/B, there is no room there now for a booster, with the clutch upper Z-bar going under the master cyl.


The only issue now is the 2 springs down at the lower Z bar. The inside one should be a very light duty fork arm pullback spring, not a heavy one.

The outboard one needs to be a heavy one because as the pedal goes 1/2 way, that spring goes over-center, to help depress the clutch. I just need to find out which of those two heavy springs is the correct length, if I get a car to put this in. Thanks to everyone for the tons of info posted on here

 

A few years back I had a 1965 Olds Starfire convertible with a factory 4spd. Very unusual to have a 4spd in a full size olds . I was told by Olds historical group 126 full size Olds had a 4spd in 65.

 

I sold that Jetstar I about 1969, couldn't keep a clutch in it. One nite during a clutch repair I found a throw out bearing at an out of the way parts store, (Bones on the Ashley bypass) , box said "49-51 Cadillac hearse." It had a grease fitting on it. Broke the clutch linkage about that time, Olds did not have the part, had to weld it.

 

Thanks Jack; That's interesting about Olds not having the part in the later 60s.

I was thinking that this guy who bought the parts, may have done so in the middle 60s to maybe late 60s. It looks like he could not get the main pin, and a clevis. He ran a shop and only ran Olds sticks. He just never did the swap on the 61 in the pic, but you can see where he pulled the firewall cardboard to take a look at the firewall, and tore it a bit....45 years ago?

These stick cars must have been tough to find back then.

Yes all the older Olds and Cads had fittings.


Nice to hear from old Olds owners. My favorite part of the Olds hobby is listening.

 

Frank, I converted my 64 Chev Belair from an AT to a 4 spd. The Olds set up has many more pieces and complications for sure. The Chevs are pretty basic and use a typical Z bar arrangement but you can have PB as there is room for it since the clutch arm goes at an angle to the frame mounted crossbar. Wonder why Olds didn't do it this way?
Anyhow, I got frustrated trying to locate all the pieces and just put in a hyd. clutch master cyl. Much easier.

 

Where could I find accurate webscans of Oldsmobile parts books online? or do I need to look for original books? I would really like to learn about the 60-64 set ups.

I am almost certain that these new parts I have, were ordered from Olds for a 1961 car, the exact car that I showed the underdash picture of. Or maybe the parts you are talking about were discontinued and he bought what he could? Thanks for any input so far.

 

Shouldn't there be an "assembly manual" for these car? Being GM, if they were built in regular assembly, there should be.

Chevy had them. This is a book that is used at the factory to help the formen know what goes where as odd ball stuff comes down the line. Shows blow up pictures of the parts and describes the installation and lists part numbers.

 

I had a friend that had a stick 61 Olds S88 Holiday coupe. I was young and asked him how much did it cost to get that 3 spd in there? He said 288 dollars less or what ever the price of the optional auto trans was at that time. I'd love to find that car today....probably couldn't afford it. Pontiac's are tough enough but Oldsmobile's must really be a bitch.