Ok, this is going to be my first "how to". I know there are a ton of threads with guys asking how to and where to go, etc...but nowhere on here or any other boards did I see a complete swap/upgrade thread with photos and what was used and what had to be done to make it work. Here goes... I went with the most simplistic route of upgrade but it is basically a true bolt on. I am using the stock drum front with s-10 drum rear. Could also run non power disc fronts with the dual master though. I started off by ordering the Fatman Fabrication dual master cylinder adapter bracket. Simple direct bolt on using stock master mounting holes, just need longer fine thread bolts. $70 shipped in 2 days from them. Can be found on their website under Products>IFS kits>Trick IFS parts & then scroll to the bottom. Their kit advertises using the 74-78 Mustang master cylinder...but guess what...I went to roughly 6 parts stores and they were all special order 2-3 days. (IF) there was ever any issue with the master cylinder that means down time...I decided against using it. After some measuring and thinking I came up with using a 67-70 Chevrolet C-10 dual master. It is an over the counter part at every store I went to and at $14.99 with a $6 core it's priced to use! The mustang dual master line ports exit towards the engine and with some thought I knew immediately that it would have caused trouble. The exhaust manifolds would not have allowed lines to clear comfortably and I was also really worried about boiling the brake fluid. The Chevrolet master exit towards the wheel side and runs perfect to route them without issues. This can be seen in the last photo, I am going to make a plate to dissipate the heat from the master just to rule out any chance of it getting too hot. The bottom of flange on the master cylinder needed ground down roughly 1/2" off the bottom but was practically nothing. The bolt flange is exact bolt up to the bracket. No other modifications needed on it. Then you need to un-thread the brake rod adjuster and it will need 3/4" cut off and then just grind the tip to a smooth rounded edge to simulate the original for re-installation. It leaves plenty of thread for adjustment. Master installed and brake rod adjusted: the rod simply moves up from the factory angle just a few degrees and swings freely and clear of all objects. Dust boot installed (unlike me...make sure to install this prior to the master cylinder, lines and all hardware!): Line port output side with front lines started. (I will post finished photos once I get my new t-fitting and brake switch) Clearances with the engine installed, this is a SBC & 700r4...yes blasphemy I know, but it's my $250 drivetrain. I used Butch Cool Stuff SBC to 49-51 Merc mounts and it was worth every penny to not have to do anything but bolt the mounts on and bolt the drivetrain in! I can also answer any questions regarding this if needed.
I can dig it. I'm working on a 50 right now and I was wondering where I could find weld in kits for a chevy sb. I too have heard things about how its "blasphemy" to put in a "belly ****on" chevy engine into a ford car but I'm not a rich man. For every 50 cents I spend on gm product, I'll spend a dollar for ford. Matt
Nothin wrong with a small chevy motor, i like the 265 and 283 so its not such a cookie cutter deal so to speak. What made you decide to swap to a different master cylinder if your still running drum brakes front and rear?
I swapped to do away with the single reservoir master cylinder. If you lose a line or wheel cylinder, etc...you lose you whole brake system. This has happened to me in a chopped custom belair I bought a couple years back 2 days after owning it. Needless to say, I ended up rolling through an intersection while my light was red and luckily I sailed through between cross traffic. Dragging your foot out the door in neutral, by yourself trying to slow down a tank isnt the greatest after a near heart attack.
Exactly what I need. Now do you have to rebuild the plate in the floor to make room for the transmission?
As far as engine/trans mounts go? No modifications of the trans tunnel or removal cover was needed. I removed the cover for ease of installation but once I set the trans mount into the factory crossmember location and then rested he front of the engine into the biscuits of the mounts and bolt it in I was able to set the cover back in the car and bolt it up with no clearance issues. I am even goin to be using the factory column shifter with stock linkage slightly modified to work with the 700r4 trans. Butch's kit was a true bolt in kit that required no mods to the steering, oil pan, brake system, firewall or cooling system. I am running a long stem water pump, hei distributor, and stock manifolds. No extras to buy, no mods needed. jfrolka is using a similar mount set up that uses the earlier blocks that still retain the mounting bosses under the timing cover. I do believe that using those though you have to grind the p***enger bracket/plate or the crossmember or do some heavy bending of the fuel lines including the hard mounted line coming off the pump itself in order to use a mechanical pump.
In order for my style mounts to accept a mechanical fuel pump I have to do a cutout in the ch***is to make room for the little pump. My 3 speed lined up the clutch pedal tube from the ch***is to the trans perfectly so I am unsure if the 3 speed will line up if the Butch motor mounts allow the fuel pump to clear the front crossmember. I think Im gonna switch to a dual master now that you told me that story KOTC.... no way in hell im dealing with complete loss of braking!!
And my oil pan doesnt clear the main middle steering link so I have to notch the pan with a 2" round tube.
Maybe won't be an issue but let's say for some reason you have a problem with the master cyl and need to return it. Think they'll take it back now its been ground on? Why not make your own bracket or modify the fatman one?
It's a $70 bracket, the master cylinder is $14.99. The option on which piece to grind a 1/4" off is clear to me. For 14 bucks I'll throw it in the garage and buy another if I absolutely had to. I have it in good with my local auto store, I walk in and use the computer system, hell...I know the store better than some of the employees. The guy there told me if I ever had to return it for any reason, exchange/warranty/dislike, whatever just bring it in while he is there and I know a few others that wouldn't even care. I'm sure most of the guys on this site have some sort of hookup at their local auto parts store with atleast one employee there...Not a big deal.
It's not so much the cost of the part. I was kinda thinking about a repair while on the road, would you have a way to grind on a master cyl?
Easier to do that than wait 3 days for a replacement master cylinder such as the mustang II that they recommend and line issue, etc...if needed you could buy it and walk to a local garage, auto repair shop, etc and ask them for a grinder and 5 minutes worth the use. Make a phone call to a friend to bring a grinder or go to said friends house to use tools, its alot of quicker and easier this way in all scenarios. For what its worth, I have never had a master cylinder go bad. Always some other part of the braking system that fails.
personally, I wouldn't put any part on a car that has to be modified to be installed. Think of the worse scenerio and it WILL happen. I'd modify the mount and keep the M/C stock.
Murphy's Law gets me everytime. I would now just make that master bracket myself, but im a cheap *** and like making my own brackets.
The dual master most commonly used is a 1967-68 Mustang drum brake unit, in new a Bendix 11485 is $41.79 @ Rock Auto the rebuilt is Autozone's Fenco M1485 @ $19.99 (look for Bendix cores) most vendors including Raybestos are outsourced parts.Picture is the Bendix unit,note port locations.
Do whatever you like. I'm not telling anyone what to do, Im not scared or worried about modifying something to make it work. I didn't cut the thing in half and rebuild it. I ground a simple 1/4" of the bottom of the flange which affected the master cylinder in no way. This is a thread on how and what I did. If it looks easy enough and this is the route you would like to go than its an option. That master you provided the link to was actually larger bodied than the C-10 master I used an I knew clearance was goin to be tight already. I asked to see multiple makes and models to compare, 5 out it 10 were special order only and then the others were all oddly shaped or to large for my liking. Just because you put the master on of your choice doesn't mean it can't fail. Build your car how you want.
that's a pretty neat install there. i like how you were able to keep the organ pedal and still raise the MC above the wheel cylinder line, or at least it looks that way. it's up and where it can be easily checked, that's what counts. under the floor, it'll get ignored. i wonder if there's room to do that on my shoebox....
I agree with you, I dont know WTF, the other guy is thinking you did it your way and I appreciate your information and I am going to check if your way will work on my Merc still running the flattie. I too have had a single pot master cylinder blow out and it was not fun with out any brake at all. I will not drive a car with a single pot again. I dont care if it affects the originality of the car. I Thank You again for this thread. Larry
62rebek, that is Exactly what I was trying to get through. The master is taller than than the wheel cylinders so no residual valves are needed. This is what I forgot to mention and I'm glad you caught it. Due to the master being higher than the wheels cylinders you can use any master you like. The valves do not have to be installed or in the master cylinder you use which is the reason most want to use a drum brake/manual master cylinder. They do make a bracket for the shoebox Fords, it's under the same section I posted in the first post.
Roddin-shack I am glad that you are able to see past the possibility of small modification to be able to have even the most simple of any modern upgrade on an original. I'm not looking to make enemies with this post. Everyone is en***led to their opinion and option of whatever route they like to go. I'm sure some will read this and blow it off, some may be searching for this exact thread, some may use options from this thread. I just wanted to get another option out there for those people.
Thanks again, just to let you know and to maybe Piss off the Restorers here, I am doing it to a mint original rustfree 51 Merc coupe, I just want the safety factor. Larry
Thanks KOTC for the thread. I printed it off yesterday to refer to later for my Merc. I don't see a problem with modifying parts. I do it all the time. I thought that is what this site is all about. When I do as you did on my car, and I had a problem with the master cylinder, I would just do the same thing that I did the first time around. Other option is to re-kit the master cylinder, that would be traditional wouldn't it? Neal
Your stock front brakes do need a residual, as all drum brakes up to the mid '70s. Has nothing to do with master location, only wheel cylinders and shoe return springs. The bracket you are using may work great (more room) with a flathead, but positions the master way too close to the Chevy exhaust manifold. It would be better if the master was positioned towards the rear, behind the pedal. Yes, not as convenient, but better. Not knocking, just constructive criticism.
That's the stock location but moved upwards about 5". Front drums only need a residual valve if the master is mounted lower than the wheel cylinder. Gravity will keep fluid in the line down to the wheel cylinder in my setup. The brake system onmy car is done and I have an excellent firm pedal that has a bit of sponge to it giving it a power ***isted feel. Much better than some of the other cars I have owned with drum/drum setups on them. I appreciate your concern but I have thought this out thoroughly and done my research quite a bit. I am going to bend up a large 1/4" steel plate to bold to the stock holes located on the frame next to the master to dissipate the heat and it will do the trick. If I wanted to do the master behind the pedal I would have spent the $700 or a disc brake swap and then another $300 for the 7" power booster/master/bracket.
Gravity has nothing to do with residuals on drum brakes, fact, NOT opinion. "Bit of sponge" to give it a power ***ited feel? Really? Where did that come from? More like air in the system. You may have thought this out thoroughly, and done research, but it's not correct. However, you are correct that a single 7" booster would be a waste of money for your Merc. I, along with many others, have had to redo stuff that was not right the first time, but brakes are one of the most important. You really need to do more correct research on brake systems. Hope everything works out safe and good for you.
when i say sponge it has a little cushion to it, its not like trying to kick a hole through concrete like some of the previous vehicles i have owned and/or driven when attempting to brake. residual valves keep the fluid from running back to the master when it is mounted lower than the lines/system, thats all they do. this isnt my first rodeo
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