1965 Pontiac 421 2+2 , survivor vs "make it run"

In the small community that the HAMB is, given that there's litterally millions of enthusiasts out there, you'd think that this was an uber-dollar-precious-icon of a car. It's not. Kool? Sure is, and I'd love to have it. Would I want it with the added fuss of making sure it had leaded premium all the time? Have to add subs***utes and what not to my gas to avoid detonation? No thanks. So we have the OG motor/trans. It always goes with the car, new owner or not. My opinion would be a 73-4-5 455 and 4spd. More fun, accepts no-lead fuel, fast and torquey (big cars demand TQ!) and all but the most seasoned of Pontiac freaks would NEVER know the difference until it was for sale or if I chose to spill the beans. Matching numbers, original paper, vin tags, stories, none of those mean a fat rat's *** when you're behind the wheel remembering why you bought the car. Hey, 3spd stick GTOs were also available and as rare as it gets. Why? Nobody wated em! 3spd stick Vettes too. Howz about those SUPER RARE Camaros with column shifters?

Rare does not always equal excess value. Desire trumps rare every day of the week, sometimes twice on Sundays. Now some of you may think I just dissed a car as important as a surviving customizer. I didn't. It's way kooler to drive the snot out of it, keeping it in survivor condition with upgraded mechanicals, and keeping the upgrades quiet except to the most important person...it's owner (or new owner). When does all of this verbage have to be set aside? When someone decides to "PHS" the thing some day. I don't see that outta this car for another 10+yrs. Just sayin.

 

Please check your PM's

You have a buyer.

 

Bingo. WAY too nice a car to screw up. Hopefully this thread helps find a buyer that will get it out of the hands of the present owner.

 

Please save this car. It sounds like a one of handful built.

 

Please sell this car to a Ponch enthusiast who will put it back right. These are rare and desirable. I would rather have one than any GTO, Firebird, etc. mi just don't need it now.

 

It amazes me the guys crying leave it alone for what is really such a minor, easily corrected, modification. I thought this was a board for hotrodders, not the AACA forums. It's a bolt in swap, no alterations need to be done, and you can always switch it back.

 

Who is crying? There are plenty plain jane and crusty barges to modify today. Original once. Any fool can cut one up.

 

Do it right.

 

I really hope this car finds a buyer. I dont think its future looks good with the current owner.

 

Wasn't going to post this on the HAMB, but this seems like the appropriate place. The Canadian version of this car, leaving the Tri-5 picnic last weekend. 2+2 Parisienne, factory 396 chevy power

 

At first I was agast at anybody who would even consider swapping out the 421 for a 455 but after a little thought it only makes sense. Put the 421 away and save it from mileage. Hell, I'd even go as far as saving that top loader 3 speed and using a muncie behind the 455...it'd make a much better driver and nobody would know the difference except the owner.

 

I've heard of some rare Goats with dealer installed 421's and 428's running up an' down Woodward Ave. I'd love to see some of them...

 

A friend of mine owned a 65 GTO convertible that had a 421 in it. His Dad owned a Pontiac/Cadillac dealership and every other year he got a brand new car. In 63 he got a 421 tripower Gran Prix, and in 65 he got a black GTO convertible with all white interior and white top. It had every option you could order, including close ratio 4 speed and 4.33 posi rear.

He told everyone it was just a tripower 389 but it was turning low 12's with cheater slicks and most goats were running low 13's. One time he quietly showed me the window sticker and in the area where my GTO said 389 tripower engine his had a big X. I have heard people say Pontiac never built a 421 tripower GTO, but I rode in one.

Don

 

Yep, the undesirable 3-speed model. I'd give you like, 50 bucks Man, I would love to have that car

 

All I can say is WOW. What a car, I'd kill for that!

 

You are. Anyone can restore a car, it takes balls to cut one up. And in this case, no cutting is even needed. This may be the single most absurd thread I've seen on the HAMB in a dozen odd years, or else it's just that plain most of the people posting have no clue about Pontiac engines. For Chrissakes, you don't even have the 64-back versus 65-up starter issue to deal with here. It's no different than swapping a '53 flathead for a '49. Literally. I'm starting to wish they'd just close the thread, it's that nuts.

 

I have to agree with you NewYorker. Putting a 455 in it isn't going to hurt a thing. Keep the 421, and sell it with the car. I think everyone fears red wheels and wide whites would go on next.

 

The 421 was one of Pontiac's original HO engines, The 455 for the most part were smog engines..even the HO "Ram Air" engine were nothing compared to the 421 "Super Duty" engines....So I have to say...keep it original.

Edit; if you change anything...make it a 4 speed...

 

Not all 421s were the mac daddy versions, and dropped into a full size 2+2, with a 3spd yet, I'ma guess it ain't the fire breather some think it is. I love it, I really do. I'd give it as many miles as I could muster were I it's new owner. The miles would go on the tires, brakes, seats and body, it's vin tags, it's vinyl top. Not on it's OG engine. There's not 1 rational reason to go to the expense for it other than those that would be self-indulgent. 455 smog motor? I'll see your 421 and raise you an aftermarket SD455 camshaft, of course with a 4spd. Then again, maybe I'll raise you about 8.5:1 compression, no lead compatibility, an OD 4spd, and try to knock on 20+MPG. So, I offer this choice. Quality drivetrain, perhaps capable of 20MPG (at $4.25/gal premium!!), realiability and ease of parts aquisition, freshened and preserved outer appearence, as in unmolested as can rationally be. Or, rebuild the 421 back to dead-on-balls OEM standard, add hardened seats (not original! OMG!), 3spd, still unmolested preservation, and maybe 12-13MPG if your lucky. Not a single observer could EVER EVER tell the difference. I'm going to be in the long line that allows me to gather miles without having to drop excess cash to do it.

I'm getting told to drop a 409 in my bubbletop all the time. That's kool for everyone else because they don't buy the gas. WTF am I gonna do with a 10:1 409 living a minimum of 30 miles from anything fun to participate in? I'd rather meet the goal of driving to the Lonestar Roundup one year without having to stop every 160 miles. This car is not a bit different.

 

You guys should pm the OP and get the scoop and pics.

The 421 SD out of the Swiss cheese Catalinas that tore up the strips in the early 60s isn't the same as a 65 421 or even a 421 HO. You could build them to 421 SD specs, it wont be the same as SD . And there goes the originality thing.

 

Nothing wrong with a three spd. I had a 67 GTO with a 400 and a three spd and an 800 quadrapuke, tach on the hood. That second gear was a monster with that poncho torque. I also owned one of FOUR 66 L-79 nova ss with a three speed on the column. Now that little **** would run the 1/4 in second and outrun damn near anything on the street as long as you had the required two big guys in the back for traction. LOL. Keep the 3 spd. jmo.

 

need help finding 70-72 GTO parts can any one help. helping a buddy re build 70 gto conv. Thanks Leonard

 

My question is...Did someone change the 4-speed out cuz the torque from that 421 disintigrated it and they put a 3 speed in it or did it come stock with the 3 speed I'm wunderin....

 

I don't know, maybe its a regional thing, but were a lot of GTO's and big Pontiacs around here with 3 speeds in them. I can remember at least three friends that new GTO's (64-65) with three speeds.

 

It was "standard equipment" and had to do with a transmission plant fire.
If the dealer didn't select an optional trans, there was a 3 speed in the car on the floor.

 

Been thru it several times on this thread.
A lot can happen in 47 years, but 3 speed was standard equipment

 

So you have a factory,numbers matching, 409 bubbletop that the motor is out of, and you are putting a sb in?? And I'm not sure where you get the idea that a bigger motor with 1.5 points less compression is gonna get better mileage? You are one HELL of a painter Highlander, but is it ok if I dont ask you to build any motors??

 

I would have ordered the 2+2 with a 4-speed and all of the heavy duty SD stuff...
Maybe even add the 2x4 intake....
A set of these rims and tires would have completed the package...

 

No, my bubbletop is a plain-jane car, very much like this standard 2+2. I could replicate an exact copy of a W-motor car, but for what, and more clearly for whom? I drew the comparison in the same light and I'm sorry you didn't get it. My car is as un-exciting "as was" as this one is. Kool? ****in eh, I'd love it in my stable. Serious? Historical? Worthy of a "perfect paper" resto? Sorry.

And FWIW, I was handed the same lines when I built (read that I BUILT) my 477 BBC. "You'll be lucky to see 11.50s!" was the battle cry from the haters with their credit cards. How do you think I felt when it ran 10.88 right off the trailer? Evntually that night I ran 10.79, braking out in the 3rd round after trailering 2 local regular winners. The car was over 3700# back then too. Eventually she ran 10.32 at 129.89MPH. I took some wt out and bumped the cam up a bit. But lucky for you, I hate buildin motors

 

Well here's the chance for someone to step up and do it their way

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732758