FlatCad Racing's Quest for 200 MPH-a Cadillac Flathead Story!

It do look strange. Wont you also need to change the front axle to compete in Alt? Is somebody going to pick up the transmission?

 

I should come over and check this thing out! Maybe even lend a hand....

 

Rich, why would I need to change the axle to run in ALT? Am I forgetting something? I'm trying to make arraignments to get the tranny picked up.

Come on over! As for lendng a hand, there's always plenty to do!

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think that narrow front axle is going to cut it. or maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

 

Good luck on you quest. Me and motoandy were planning on going to Bonneville already now I will have to keep up with this hope to see you get that 200.

 

I never knew you were a poet. LOL

How about running skirts on the back?
Worth the trouble, or do the disks take care of that


Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad

 

Well thom i had a meeting with john k (wzjunk) sat and we have a plan on aero and the rear fenders will be fine without skirts but stay tuned to the flatcad channel for some really kool things to come

 

Well they made it to the Ohio Mile and the work has begun I will update as I get info

 

Well, 2 records at the Ohio Mile, and a REAL test of the engine.

I had been taking it easy on the engine, and decided we needed to know what it would do. 16lbs boost, spun 6000 rpm's, and was SEXY sounding!

So, we have a solid baseline for next year.

Don and Dale are going to work on the girdle, I'm attacking the flow with flowbench work, Dema's whittling a cam, and Randy and John K.are going to do the suspension and body.

Quest 200, here we come!

 

Cool..............

 

Picked up a set of race car corner scales – from my circle track friends.

Here is the setup:

1. Radiator Tank – Filled about 1” above pressure caps: Water circulated through the engine
2. Intercooler Tank – filled to 5” below the top: Water circulated through the intercooler
3. Oil: Running levels (will measure later).
4. Rear Weight Added (like the lead): 325 pounds
5. Fuel Tank: ½ full
6. No driver




Here are the numbers with a grossly over-developed, muscular and very athletic driver . . . that would be ME! I have about
15 – 20 lbs of clothes and gear (figure that was pretty close)



Looks like we have about a 40 front / 60 rear weight bias. I would not have guessed that we had that much weight in the rear – but we do.

I’ve been doing a bit of reading – seems that most folks DO NOT like to add weight behind the rear axle – very bad place to have it in a spin situation (acts like a pendulum). We currently have two 'racks' where we put in sets of lead filled 2" steel tubes - on the floor of the trunk (way to the rear of the car).

We probably should move the weight to ahead of the axle and as down low as possible. Maybe some thick steel plates? Anyway, thought I’d send this your way.

Time to start taking things apart!

Pictures to follow for the details of what the motor looks like - after some seriously hard racing at the Ohio Mile.

Fingers and Toes are crossed . . .

B&S

 

old lead divers shoes, would help keep weight in front of axle and throttle down................. just a thought.......

 

Wow, the car weighs about 600 lbs more than I thought!

The car is balanced very well though, considering we never had it on scales! Randy and I will bring the total weight to about 5000 lbs for next year. We may look at moving the rear ballast, if I can find some more used lead. I plan on adding some lead filled 'cross members' on both sides of the axle, and may even fill the axle cross member brace- this would move the weight directly over the rear axle.

 

Here is a few pics of the test chambers we cut today for the flow testing. Materials are HDPE.


We are cutting at 8000 RPM



I will post a video of the chambers being cut on our CNC as soon as I can get help from Lance our resident Gooroo

 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chambers look great Don! They should be perfect for what we need to do.

All of your work is just perfect! You never cease to amaze me![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I've spent a lot of time this past week exploring transmission options. The main thing everyone of the tranny guys have told me is that I should stay away from overdrive- no surprise, the same thing was said on this board![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Currently, I have the pro-shifted Liberty top loader, with 2.78, 1.93, 1.36, 1.0 gearing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I can get the tranny re-geared and freshened up, for about $700.That would be with 2.32, 1.69, 1.29,1.0 gearing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I have one other option, and that is changing the gear on the input shaft, and going with the close ratio gears. I could get the ratio down to 2.10, 1.45, 1.14, and 1.0. Add the face plating charge, and I'm looking at about $1500.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With this old, slow turning flathead, it seems to me the closer gears would be desirable. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So here's my question- is it worth $1500 to get the gearing? It will definitely help me stay in the power range I want, but will it make that much difference in 3, 4, or 5 miles?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

I thought I was in on all the FlatCad threads. Huh! Well I guess I have another one to watch.

You guys do great work for a bunch of loud, arrogant, braggarts.

 

HaHa! You might as well come out of the closet Tim- you know you're one of us at heart!

 

Maybe stupid question, can you use an OD unit?

K

.................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

I am the most humble person you will ever meet! Now don't you forget it!

 

Somehow I missed this thread?

But I found it now!

Congrats on Ohio!

I'm looking forward to the flow test results.....to steal the ideas for my lincoln project

 

Mark, I'll post the results here. I'll also send you some pics and results in an email, of the pics we won't want to share yet.

Love that Lincoln build!

 

questions.

I read 16psi and you're running gas right? but I don't see an intercooler? Do the rules not allow it?

Without one you have to be pushing 300+F inlet air temp if that's a roots blower no? Getting that down to 150 or so with a water/air cooler in the intake would give you about a 25% hp bump. If it's a screw type blower you've still got to be in the 200-250F range and still see a 10-15% hp bump.

On my last project (3 liter street car on pump gas) I was able to go from 10psi from a 90ci non-cooled roots to 24 psi from a 140ci a cooled screw type which took the hp from 300 to 600+

I was going to bump up to a 200ci blower and HUGE intercooler and try for 30 psi, but decided what I really needed was a much bigger engine and no blower.......for the moment .

 

Mark, we run a big BDS intercooler- it's one of the reasons the engine is so tall! It sits on top of the intake, just under the huffer. It is the ice water/ chiller type.

It shows up good in this pic:

 

Ahhhh.....that's what I was looking for

Mark

 

Forensics: Taking the FlatCad Engine Apart - What Can We Learn

My wife Amy and I (yes, she's in the shop working with me on this) have pulled the FlatCad engine out of the car and started the dis-assembly process. I look at it more like a forensics process of paying complete attention to detail, looking at everything, suspecting everything and seeing what you can learn. If you take your time and really look for the minute details - they are frequently there. Sometimes you can make deductions (based on obvious facts) - other times you're applying all that you know in a creative manner to ATTEMPT to explain what you see.

Background on a Couple Key Things:

1) We have custom designed billet aluminum heads.
2) Due to this, we have custom designed head gaskets - .072 solid copper with a rubberized coating to attempt to seal the water passages.
3) Heads are O-ringed (not the block) - remember, this is a flathead.
4) We fill the engine with water at the start of the race day - and drain the water EVERY night. This is for fear that we'll seep some water into the engine (over night) and ruin it the next day. This has happened to many guys in our situation, so we're very cautious.

When I pulled to top of the motor off (blower, intercooler, manifolds, etc) - noticed we had a teaspoon of water in the bottom of the center exhaust port on the driver's side. This side did NOT have a new head gasket put on for the Ohio Mile and it was not re-torqued (as we'd torqued it at least 4 times before).

Hmmmm . . . water . . . not good. Where did it come from? We didn't see anything on the dyno, Bonneville or the Ohio Mile. Did this concern me - hell yes! Leaking intake studs? Cracked block? What?

I then pulled the plugs on all cylinders - notice a very slight amount of rust on one of the center cylinders on the driver's side. Hmmmm . . . that means that the water was also inside the cylinder . . . also not good.

Then we pulled the heads and here is what we found - yes, now I see an explanation and also realized a couple new things for next year:





See the rust in the transfer area - probably some on the seat as well:



The head gasket was obviously leaking water into the cylinder - notice the discolored areas in the head and the gasket pictures (outlined in red).

Now - look at the passenger side (looks great!)





So here is what I noticed on tear down - which is why I do this by hand and I DON'T use air tools:

a) The torque on the driver's side was not what it should have been - was closer to 45 ft lbs, than 60. AND - this surely wasn't due to us not re-doing the torque many times (we did it 4 - 5 times at least) . . . during hot and cold cycling.

b) When I put the passenger head back on at the Ohio mile, I INCREASED the torque by 10 foot lbs . . . to 70 on the main/stock studs and 50 on the 7 that we added. This worked really well and the torque was maintained. The pictures show this.

Conclusions and Plans for Next Year:

1) Constant Re-Torque: No matter how many times you torque these heads - we need to check the torque after every run and ensure that the clamping forces are maintained. This also means that our new header design MUST be done in a manner that makes it easy to pull the headers. Currently, there is no way to retorque the heads with the engine in the car and the headers on.

2) Higher Torque: We're very sensitive to how much torque we use as the decks are pretty thin on this engine. Also, the seven added studs cannot be torqued like the stock ones that have the big cast-in bosses in the deck. But, we need to use the higher 70/50 torque settings . . . as this head was perfect and I didn't see any signs of gasket failures.

3) Heads - Some Rework: We need to rework the stud holes (too tight) and the stud washer setup. It is way too difficult to pull the heads - as there is too much binding within the stud holes, stud washers, thread sealers, etc.. I should be able to pull a head in about 15 minutes . . . currently it takes 3 hours on the car and over an hour outside the car. It is a TOTAL pain in the butt!

4) Adding Deck Dowel Pins: If we're going to loosen up the stud clearances, we should add 2 dowel pins to the deck - to guarantee alignment and non-movement.

5) Head Inspection: Due to the possibility of water with solid copper head gaskets, we need to pull the heads after EVERY meet - to inspect for water, oil the bores and valves, etc.. We can't afford to have even small amount of rust in the cylinders, valve seats, etc.. This needs to be a part of our standard operating procedures. It is also why it needs to be easy to pull the damn heads!

More tonight - as I'll now take the lower-end apart . . .

B&S

Thanks for the help Amy!

 

It sounds kind of silly, but I put soluble oil in the cooling water. just in case.

 

What type of copper is used for the head gaskets? Do you think water got by the o ring on the head or just on the block side? Now this will sound dumb but I see lots of cyl pressure; Combustion, Exhaust, Intake [blower], Compression..I would think leakage into the cooling system would have been the problem!

 

The silly question I'm going to ask is can you use actual o-rings on the water passages and not thing about it again?

 

Where you got the leak, is also where we got the leak in the Sidewinder!
As we whent to use Cometic gaskets, it looks of now to have solved the problem, also not needing to O-ring the engine.
As you have DXF files for the heads, have you asked Cometic if they can make new ones for the Flatcad?
This build is going to raise the demand for Flatcad parts!!


Kjell

.......................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

Not silly, I do the same thing.

I like the way you think Dale, always good to inspect everything. You never know what you might find and what you might save in the process.