HEMI Tech: Oil systems- filters, pumps, pans

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And believe me, I didnt make this with the hopes of selling a single one to a Desoto owner. As much as I like the early hemis, all of the original ideas were NOT the best. That conglomeration of a swivel/swinging oil pick-up is just one example. Where do you buy one of those anyway? Thats right....they havent been made in 60 years. And the oil filter adapter comment....well.....I'm not even going to go there.
Stay tuned...more billet shit is on the way.

 

That's beautiful work Tom!

 

This post brings up a topic that, suprisingly enough, I havent seen discussed before. It is a classic case in engine building where you need to check everything....... not just assume that the "book" is correct.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=683639&highlight=hemi

 

I thought I would mention that I now stock early hemi oil pump base gaskets. This gasket fits both bolt patterns of hemi pumps, and can be used in place of the o-ring on very early pumps.

I also now sell the sb mopar oil pump base gaskets also, for those who are running a converted sb pump with the adapter plate.
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Tom

That looks nice, good work. what is the advantage of that over the stock one?

Thanks
John

 

Tom,
Are you selling those yet? That looks like the bomb! Would have saved me a bunch of time fabbing a pickup.

 

If you are using a 392 pump in a rear sump application then a 318-360 tube/screen assembly for a pickup/van can be used with minor mods. Available new from Melling for about $20...

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I have some of those "regular" pick-ups also. Including my own design with removable screen.

 

The advantage to me is that I now have one pick-up cover that I can use on 3 different style pumps. The early hemis with the swinging tube, the later style with the threaded tube (with my top plate adapter), and the late 340 style pump.
Of course, the key is getting it placed correctly in the pan, as the later M50 pump is a couple inches shorter than the earlier style swinging type pumps.
I am just finishing up my pump, pump spacer, and pick-up packages to use any of the early hemi style pumps (old or new) with the billet pick-up, and all using stock intermediate shafts!!!!!

Other advantages include having the pick-up where the oil is upon acceleration, and having a solid mounted pick-up with removable/cleanable screen. And they look cool.

 

Here is another item I have been working on. Anyone who has dealt with an early hemi has probably seen the abnormal wear, usually a diamond like pattern, in the intermediate shaft slot where it meets the oil pump, and on the oil pump drive tang. I am thinking this is due in part to the fact that the intermediate shaft has a bushing up top, under the gear, but the bottom of the shaft is left hanging in the breeze.* Yes, it meets the oil pump shaft inside of the rear cap dowel, but that is hardly a bushing to keep things straight.
So.....I have been playing with a combination dowel/bushing arrangement, and have come up with a few different choices.

Pictured are 4 variations.
Number 1 is my chrome moly stock replacement main cap dowel. This has no more of a bushing effect than the factory piece, even though I do make it in a couple different wall thicknesses.
Number 2 is a thick wall steel dowel with moly dry film lubricant.
Number 3 is an oilite bushing with machined ID and OD to act as both a dowel and shaft bushing.
Number 4 is a trick stainless steel dowel with a thin wall oilite bushing.

* It is not really just hanging. It goes through a bored hole in the block.

While on the subject of cap dowels, I am sure that I am not the only one to pull a rear main cap and say "someone forgot to put the dowel in", only to find it pushed up inside the main cap. I recommend a little red loctite when installing into the block.. to prevent this. (NOT THE CAP)

 

Tom, you have way too much faith in a certain percentage of the folks out there...

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Damn it Gary. We can't do it all for them.

 

what is the deal with the HH 340 pump? I see shaft issues but these are not recent posts. Does anybody know if they have they resolved that issue? Their website now says "upgraded chromemolly shaft" My machine shop/engine builder is planning on using it in my 354 and I'm getting nervous about it.

Thinking about hacing him call TRwaters and get a differnt shaft

 

If you check, there's stuff on using the new Melling 392 pumps on the 331/354. Kent Redd can make a shaft for unaltered HV pump. That's what I'm using. There's been reports on problems with the altered HH HV pumps also.

 

is there an oil slinger mounted to the crank behind timing cover? I know B/RB and I think La motors have an oil slinger should my 354 Chrysler?

 

Yes. Are you coming to the Paradise Drags in Calhoun on Saturday?
Tony

 

I'm going to try but my kids have their activities.and my wife is volunteering with hands on ATL so It looks bad. But I will be at the Atl Dragway the 13th for sure.

where Can I get an oil slinger? I dont seem to have one with the disassembled engine I got and It's now going back together and it just occored to me.

I don't see it on Hot heads websight

thanks,
Pete

 

Check with "73RR" (Gary, QEC,) or Ron Ganster 1-229-686-0748 usually has used bits & pieces.

 

The A-LA oil slinger can be used.

We do not recommend adapting the HV-72 oil pump. Initially, the swap was made to cover the loss of the M50 pump but since it is back in production (Thanks Melling!!!) the M50 is a better pump to use. NO SPECIAL PARTS ARE INVOLVED.

 

now I'm thoroughly confused.....

What is a HV-72 pump? An M50 Melling will bolt right on a 331?

What problems are people experiencing with the HH 340 conversion?

BTW, I had to change the length of the fixed pickup as it was too long....not sure how HH determined the dimension, but it was off by 1/2"

This is the route I took and now I read all these negatives.....

After installation, the shaft turned freely, and I didnt see any interference at the rear main or the pan. (I have yet to pressurize the oil system, but will use a small external pump rather than spin the engine oil pump as I didn't want to disturb the dist slot alignment)

Also, are gaskets really necessary on the oil pump ? As long as the mating surfaces are flat and true, why use a gasket?

 

There have been a number of complaints posted about either the HH moded M72HV (340HV) oil pump and/or the HH int shaft failing. Probably a tiny fraction of the numbers sold, but.... Anyhow the Melling M-50 392 pump isn't a direct bolt on, think details on an easy mod to your main cap is on this thread(I think), the shaft & one bolt lines up, plug the nonmatching hole with threaded rod & drill/tap a hole in the right place. Alternativly one poster here on the Board is working on getting a guy to manufacture int shafts that would use unaltered M72s with an adaptor plate.

 

I spoke to HH recently and they said "they now have a hardened shaft" after they claim only 1 guy had an issue and started a big intenet campaign about it. They claim to sell 20 or 30 a month. with no failures.

Hard to know who to trust obviously this is a crucial part and if things go wron your looking at big $ (I think Hemi means big $ in latin or something)

 

The new Melling pump will do the job in 98% of the cases. Early 331 and some 354 will need a mod to the rear main cap which either Gary and I can do for you. Gary plugs and redrills, I use an insert. I also have a rear sump pick-up kit available, as I am sure Gary does. (shameless blatant plug I know, but someone has to do it)
I do feel that some of the problem with the converted pumps was lack of attention to detail. I have had cases where the adapter plate needed to be clearance to clear the pump housing. I believe I posted pictures of that in the past. Without knowing, the pump would not sit correctly on the adapter, causing problems.
My .02 is do the main cap mod. Again, as Gary said...no other adapters or shafts needed.

 

The pump shaft in a converted Hot Heads pump is merely chrom moly steel. It wears out (the drive tang wears out). The replacement pump they sent fell apart. They REUSED the torque to yield bolts in the Melling pump and one cover bolt fell out in less than 1800 miles.

Hot Heads is a reseller and they aren't all that technically competent when it comes to mechanical engineering.

BTW, ring their local fire brigade and inquire as to what happens out on Walker's Hollow Road when the economy sags. Don't know their insurance carrier's name but the fire brigade can tell you the same things you'd find out from examining their insurance claims.

 

Yea, the M-50 is for the 392 and modifications are in order if you want to use it on a 331/354 main bearing cap.

 

OK so if I already have the HH pump can I just bolt a melling on to their adapter and chuck the rest?

I thought all they actuaually made was the adapter and the pump itself was ok?

 

The M50 pump (commonly called the 392 pump) is not a direct bolt-on to the 331 main cap: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117468&highlight=hemi+tech&page=6
In addition to the main cap modification, there is additional information in the thread worth reading so perhaps start at the beginning.

The M50, in my estimation, is a superior pump to the M72 (oem LA style), when used on an EarlyHemi simply due to lack of non-stock parts and adapters.

I do not believe that Mr Walker makes the oil pumps he sells, and I have no knowledge of whether or not he designed or actually manufacturers the adapter parts for the M72, but he does sell the parts.

The oil pickup tube and screen assembly from a rear sump (318-360 pickup truck) type application can be bought new (Melling again) from your local parts house. NO, it will not be a direct bolt on (screw-in) unless your oil pan has the correct depth. It will likely be in need of modification. Last time I checked they were about $20. If you have an engine core supplier in your area you could also ask them.
Or, buy one from TRWaters.

Gary

 

You can use their adaptor & an unaltered pump, provided you get an Int shaft made with the hex end that matches the pump, that's what I did. the stock 340 pump has a hex fitting, HH changes the shaft out to the blade type. There have been reports of the HH int shaft failing, perhaps due to the cuts not being stress relieved & reports that the replacement shaft in the pump failing.

 

I've got a 354 not 331. I've read the whole thread and the more I read the more indecisive and confused I get.

My machinist is great and they actually take apart every oil pump they install and check clearences and fitment etc.and machine and modify if needed. And the guy actually building the engine with me has built tons of experience building high end & even top fuel engines so I trust his experience but he just has no knowledge of first gen hemi's, so he is relying on me to provide the oil pump or use the HH one he ordered.

I've been saving up for this project for many years and only want to build it once If you know what I mean.

 

Ok..back to the beginning. The old hemi oil pump came in two different bolt patterns. The early pattern has the bolt spacing at 1 13/16". This is the larger pattern. The later (M50) style is 1 11/16". (approximately). There are no new large pattern pumps being produced. So to use a brand new early hemi pump, you must change the pattern on the rear main cap to accept the M50.

The HH pump is a small block mopar pump in which the drive shaft has been changed from female hex to male tang. It uses an adapter to mate it to the main cap. It cannot be used without an adapter of some type. An over the counter sb mopar pump cannot be used 1: without an adapter, and 2: without a special drive shaft.