Projects FED with killer Flathead

You'll probably be okay - just depends on how 'lean and mean' you go! The good news is that I believe you're running on alcohol (am I correct?). It is much easier/safer to run blown/alcohol than blown gas!

 

Already some progress! Talked to Don at Hilborn, and they are on the case! I left an empty block and blower mounting-plate at Rogers shop.
Picked up the new heads today, and they really are some nice pices!?


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Taildragger&fenderless

 

That's some flathead porn, for sure!

 

Damn, I have to follow this to see how fast you can go with that thing!

I "only" got 306Hp/5000rpm/6psi from my 284cid. I didn't get it in the track in this summer, but next year I have to go. I'll rise the boost little bit in this winter and buy better rear tires. I don't have traction at all with those old bias-plys...
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Fuel pressure is pretty low! What fuel pump are you running?

 

Damn Kjell those heads look awsoooome............

 

I think he's talking about boost - not fuel pressure . . . and he's going pretty dang high on it!

Whups - looked lower down and he only had 25 psi of pressure at WOT - that seems low to me too! Could be the nozzle size as well . . .

 

Really nice Hot Rod you have there!
I have a pair of Hurst Slicks if you need more tracktion!
They sit on a pair of early American Racing 5 spokes! Just 1200 eur. for the lot!

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Thanks Carl Bad i can't use the Water loggs, they really looks nice on them. And now i have two extra sets of heads! Need to start selling stuff off!

Actually the fuelpressure was a litle to low, I think!? aprox. 30 PSI i my memory is correct. The pump is a Hilborn 150.
And as you pointed out Dale, the inntake pressure is abit high.
I think i will lower it, start out at 18 psi.
The new heads probably will give me abit lower CR, plus they will cool alot better when i start leaning it out!
With port nozzles, the blower will push even more air, so I need to be careful.
It's gona be really interesting to see if it will give us better resons on HP!?


Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Hey Kjell:

In the old days, folks ran bigger nozzles and less pressure -- seems that most folks today are running smaller nozzles and higher pressure. This tends to keep things a bit cleaner on the lower end. Some guy will run a high-speed bypass if they want to limit pressure/fuel at WOT (which I don't think you'd need with the RPMs of a flathead). Hilborn can easily tell you about what nozzle and pump size you need - given your HP, motor size and fuel.

I'd like to know what their recommendations are when you hear back from them!

 

Thanks for the info Dale

I am abit concerned about atomization of the fuel, as the nozzles now are getting nearer the valves, no help of the blower to mix it up!?

I will fill you inn as soon as I get the formula from Hilborn.
Take a look at this;
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=742353

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Thanks.


I've just ordered pair of 16" Hurst whitewalls...

 

Carl, those heads really look cool! Can't wait to mock them up!

Dale, If my memory serves me right, this Baron heads are one of the best flowing heads out of the box!? But the CR are lowered somewhat, could
it be an idea to weld some material, and make them flow more like the Baron Racig heads? Or leave them as they are?

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Kjell, do you have accress to a flow bench? You could always add material like clay, until you achieve the results you want.

Then, you could add material and trim it to what worked on the flow bench.

I'll have the FlatCad and heads on the flow bench the 24th of this month. I'll post up how we do it, and the changes we make, if any, that gain us flow.

 

Thanks Buddy, I'll try to find the papers I got from Baron some years ago


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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Kjell you running a filled block?........ you could always make your own water manifold to clear the blower if you needed too...........

 

Hey Kjell: What you should do first is put a head on your block (with a gasket) and tighten it down a bit and CC the chamber and relief area -- so you have an idea as to where your compression is at the moment. You don't need a whole heck of a lot of compression given that you're going to run some pretty heavy boost. You're better off with flow, than you are with more compression on a blown motor - as it will "stuff" the intake charge into the chamber.

This style of Baron head is not his pop-up high-flow version - which uses a huge transfer area and a big pop-up piston (more along the line of some of our thoughts with the FlatCad). I've never had the opportunity to run both sets of heads - as you'd have to make custom pistons for the pop-up version, so you can't just swap the heads and dyno them side-by-side. Would be fun to do though . . . if I only had a dyno!

Try to get your piston to head clearances to about .040 or so - make sure you clay the top, bottom, right and left sides of the piston . . . so you can check it every place.

Once you know you have your compression where you want it, then I'd polish the chambers.

Head Gaskets:

If you're going to O-ring the heads (which I'd recommend at your boost levels - unless you're using Cometic head gaskets), then you can buy custom copper head gaskets (FlatOut) and they come in different thicknesses - which can help tune the clearances.

I've never used Cometic head gaskets on a flathead - but I'd sure try them at your boost levels. If they do seal well, then it beats the O-ring route - which definitely works, but is a pain in the ass. By the way Jegs shows that Cometic makes flathead gaskets in .051, .070 and .080 thicknesses for the 3.375 bore . . . gives you a few options.


Let me know how the CCs and piston clearances shape out - out of the box, then we can figure out what is next!

Once Buddy gets some flow-bench work done on our FlatCad chambers (which are not like standard flathead stuff), we may learn some more things. We're going to initially see if more transfer area helps (my guess is it will). We may lower compression a bit and see if more flow helps. Having another set of heads to dyno will be interesting . . . as we'll have the ability to acquire definitive answers to questions - instead of just opinions and flow-bench only data points. Hopefully we can dyno both sets of head designs . . . time will tell.

 

You're going to run nozzles at the top of the blower as well - at least I hope so (cooling, lubrication). Is the blower stripped?

I can't imagine that at your HP levels that you need to run down nozzles in the manifold - but maybe there is another reason you're doing it? I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm curious as to what Hilborn says? I'll also ask Fowler - as we builds a ton of custom MFI stuff - will be interesting to hear his opinion. (Almost everything he builds is for blown alcohol).

 

Thanks Dale
We will try to do what you recomend with clay and see how it turns out. I know that The Baron Hi flow heads needs custom pop-up pistons,
but we will not go that route just yet. As we used the Offy. heads, my porting is just what i thought was a better idea, as the stock Offy heads have asymetrical combustion chambers. All better flowing heads are more symetrical. By changeing to the Baron heads, I hope they flow better than mine, they will cool much better, and more rigid thus sealing better.
As the engine tilts abit, I will have the water filler neck at the rear og the heads, also making the heads cool better.

Regarding the Head gaskets, You had the answer Dale, solid copper heads did not seal between the center cylinders and the water passage! So at teh last race, we switched to the Cometic gaskets, and they performed exlent.
So when we where in the US, I ordered a nother set, just to have a spare
The thickness might not be excact, and I need to messure as you poit out!
I will be very Interesting to see what you get out of the flowbench for the Flatcad!

Just found the Baron papers

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Yes, we are gona run 2 nozzles on top too, to cool the blower abit.
No it's not stripped as of now, but wil consider that after next year.
Roger has also gotten a lead for a new blower in a box, locally!
Another thought, would be nice to have a little fuel from the hat, if one of the port nozzles get clogged, then the port gets some fuel from abowe!?

When i called Hilborn, they said that with a flathead, it's hard to get even fuel dristribution, so fort nozzles would be the way to go.
And after this season, we have learned that it's very hard to tune the flathead right, hard to get it running even on all cylinders.
I'll post more when Hilborn gets back at me

Look at the old and new head. not too much diffrence!?


Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Yea, I dunno! The fact that some of your cylinders are running fat, and some lean, makes me wonder about the ported intake.

Can you borrow a bugcatcher, or similar injection, and try it? I definately think you need to get that fuel up above the blower! I think that would give you better atomization, and more even distribution. The huffer is going to push everything into the cylinders it can- at least that way you have an even fuel mixture! JMHO.

Heads look cool!

 

Yes Buddy, you are correct, the current inntake is the big problem.
A new intake is the solution, the idea is to make eight equal length runners i a small plenum, hopefully approx as lage area as the blower adapter plate.
Hope this makes any sense!?
The current head/intake/4th exhaust pipe, is not service friendly.
With the Baron heads, we need to raise the blower, then make a new 4th ex. pipe at more angle uppwards. This will make it easy to service!?

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Or...


....or, just run your injection on top of the huffer! I initally planned something similar to you, with only a jet or two on top of the huffer, to cool and lubricate the blower. I even had a custom port injected intake made.Everyone that had ever ran a blower told me I was on the wrong track.

The bugcatcher works great-I'm glad I went that route!

Whatever you end up doing, I KNOW you guys will make work. This is a very cool build, and I really enjoy following it!

See you on the salt next year!

 

Thanks for the input Buddy New intake, but i might wait with the port nozzles!? Lets see what Hilborn comes up with?
We'll make the new intake with tabs for the nozzles, so it would be easy to do if this becomes the solution.

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Kjell- I wasn't suggesting that you use port nozzles.

I was suggesting putting all of your fuel through the blower!

It will be interesting to see what Hilborn says.

 

Humm ................I'm listening, in the distance............

 

Sorry Buddy, me just wrighting a little strange
What I say is that I will try without first But it will be interesting to hear what Hilborn recomend!?

I'll hope for sure I will be able to meet you at Bonneville, and learn from you all!

Kjell

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Taildragger&fenderless

 

Concerning injecting above and below the blower and the shape of the manifold.fficeffice" /><O></O>
The manifold I made for the Flat Cad has a flat surface onto which the blower dumps its air and fuel mixture. I had debated giving the bottom a pointed shape to channel the flow to the side but was concerned about puddling. And went with the flat bottom hoping that turbulence would keep the fuel suspended. Apparently that worked out OK for you Buddy.<O></O>
In looking at Kjell's manifold I note that the fuel flow (which is not always the same as air flow) may have a tendency to bypass some ports in favor of others thus causing a run lean in some cylinders and rich in others. <O></O>
The manifold I made for my blown Ford flatty also has a flat bottom. ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comAl</st1ersonName>though it was originally designed to run dry; I found, to my suprise, that it gave excellent performance, all around, on the street.<O></O>
In researching, Barney Navarro actually installed windows in an intake manifold of a supercharged flatty and found fuel running down the side of the manifold, which indicates that it would be very important to try in every way possible to avoid puddling in the manifold and even out distribution. A manifold similar to mine, with a common chamber at each end for the four intakes at each end that fuel could be directly injected into may solve the fuel distribution problem; or perhaps just blowing down on the flat floor would cause enough turbulence to keep fuel in suspension. I'm sure Hilborn will have some thing interesting to say on the matter. Here are some pic's of my manifold to more easily visualize. In my particular application I'm running carbureted and because the blower is not centrally located and was blowing down into the front four intakes I devised a baffle to divert and even out the flow. These are just my own observations (my own 2 cents worth). Perhaps it will be of some use to you, Kjell.<O></O>

 

That is one beautiful manifold there Roy!

 

Thanks for posting Roy
Very nice intake!
I understand that your intake design works alot better, as it's completly open. My idea is in a way the same, but the opening on the 4-71 is smaller, not extending all the way out to the ports.
That's why I wan't to make the runners go in a slight angle toward a plenum. This will also raise the blower abit, making room for the 4th exhaust pipe to clear the new Baron heads.
Allthoug we managed to take the head of and on twice
within 1 hour!

-Blue-

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Taildragger&fenderless