FlatCad Racing's Quest for 200 MPH-a Cadillac Flathead Story!

Hey, FlatCad's in Hot Rod Magazine! Cool. A picture and a small blurb on page 91 of the January 2013 issue. (Plus a teeny-tiny picture at the top of the cover.)

 

I built my flow bench for about $200....I am a cheap bastard

 

Yep, and we got a 6 page spread in the Australian Hot Rod mag!

Mark, I don't have much more in this one! I probably need to hook up with you, to make sure I use it to it's potential!

 

You win if you didn't have to spend you time and it was still cheap!

Everything you tested sounds right to me.

I usually do the port size based on straight up math.....I want to see at LEAST 160ft/sec port velocity, but 190-195 is where everything seems to work best. I wan tthe peak velocity as close to the seat as possible then the port should taper larger at about 2 degrees going away from the valve to the carb/blower/whatever. That's my secret formula....oops, it's not a secret any more

 

Thanks Mark!

Velocity was a big issue- we were down around 130-140ft/sec. We'll use some epoxy, and try to reconfigure the ports some, to bring up velocity and flow.

 

Looks like you ara gona be busy this winter
Very interesting to see what you will get out of the flow bench work.
The Oval shape lifters is a great idea, strange that noone have thought of this before, but again we have never seen a 650 hp flatcad, and the knowhow in the Flatcad crew!

I have been thinking of what got out of the flow resault, and that the ports are too big. I can understand that this very important if the Flatcad di not have a lounge (blower).
I thougt that all flatheads have too tiny and long runners. and too long way to get to the valves. With big ports, the blower will produce a charge before the valve opens. When it opens, fill the cylinder quickly?
Also another factor is the internal pulses in the intake!?
Is it possible to make a simulation of the flow with current ports and with the intake pressure you have and cam duration?

K

.....................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

I've been sitting on this for several weeks, but have been given the green light to release it.

This is a 4 page article in Street Machine's Hot Rod Annual in Australia.

 

Goggs did a great job on the article! Congrats to all!

 

I used to think that too but the truth is that the better everything works before the boost, the better it works with the boost. Start with a 200hp engine and add 15 psi and you get a 400hp result but do the porting and flow work, better cams, etc to get the base to 300 and you get 600 when you add the same 15 psi. To get to 600 from the first engine would take 30 psi and that's a LOT of boost!

I havwe a program, dynomation5 which lets you put in the port dimensions, flow numbers, cam info, blower type and drive ratio and then spits out goobs of infomation about what to expect including hp, torque, BSFC, pressure waves in the ports and exhaust, pressure in the cylinder, expected ideal ignition timing......basically anything you'd want to know. It's very very helpful in doing setup.

 

Just read it ... International Rockstars !

Its in the SM 2012 Hot Rod Annual ...

 

Been working over the holidays to clean up all the internals from the FlatCad, do some more forensics on the parts and get ready for the freshen up, rebuild for next year.

A little history on the motor: This was the first year that it has been ran - just finished it in early spring, brought it to John Beck to dyno, managed to get it ready for Bonneville . . . ran it hard there and REALLY ran it hard at the Ohio Mile. It has gone through various issues with fuel problems, it has been over-revved (floated the valves), it was thrashed hard at the Ohio Mile to see if it could handle it, etc.. Frankly, when we took it apart . . . we had no clue as to what we were going to see.

We found that 5 of the intake lifters had adjuster issues and they'd backed off about .250 (out of .510) . . . which means not only did we have very little lift, we had very little duration - but it still ran really hard. Cheap ass lifters caused the issue - though we're going to a custom roller cam next year to hopefully give the valve train a bit more reliability.

It was the lower end that Buddy and I were most worried about - as we'd thrashed it hard, had thrown a LOT of horsepower at it and we have no clue as to how strong these blocks actually are. With only 3 main bearings, 4 5/8 stroke, 8.75" rods, 6000+ RPM and 550+ horsepower . . . what were we in for?

Well - here are the pictures of the key lower end components - everything looks really normal . . . better than I had expected.

Here is the crankshaft journals -- the mains are in good shape, the rod journals have a bit of wear on the back side. After close inspection today, I believe that they'll need to be ground undersize to .010 . . . as I can feel some grooves with my fingernails.







Here are the bearings - in pretty dang good shape. Maybe our 'priority main' oiling system kept them happy?



A piece of crap went through the center main, but all-in-all, they were in nice shape for what they went trough.



Here are a couple pictures of the pistons. They were coated by our sponsor (Finishline Coatings) - with a ceramic coating on the tops, a friction reducing coating on the sides and a oil shedding coating on the undersides. Given the extreme piston speed we experienced, they look really good.





Even though we're running a dry sump, there was plenty of oil up in the pins, the skirts looked really good and the HTD rings showed a really consistent sealing surface all around.

Everything looked really normal/good - especially considering that this engine had quite a bit of time on it (for a 100% purpose-built race engine) . . . with no checks or freshening up since the dyno.

Good stuff gang . . . gives us a lot of encouragement for where we're headed. Hopefully - stronger, faster and with more HP . . . and still reliable!

We'll keep posting as we get into the next stage of things . . . should be some real fun!

 

Sounds great Dale. Really neat when things come out as planned huh???

 

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][quote author=BoredAndStroked link=topic=8271.msg208807#msg208807 date=1353802413]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Take a look at the bearings - in pretty dang good shape. Maybe our 'priority main' oiling system kept them happy? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Even though we're running a dry sump and this beast has an extremely tall deck (8.75" rods), there was plenty of oil up in the pins, the skirts looked really good and the Akerly HTD rings showed a really consistent sealing surface all around.
B&D
[/quote][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The stock priority oiling system is very good, no doubt about it. Adding the dry sump and more volume only adds to the success of the design![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Even though we had plenty of oil to the piston pins this year, it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about next year. We're discussing going to vacuum in the engine next year, so any benefit of 'splash oiling' we had will be lost. Even if we have adequate pin oiling, we can still benefit from cooling the pistons with oilers.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I don't agree, however, that we need to run 100 psi in this engine, for it to survive-not even close! I think if we could enlarge our oil ports, thereby increasing volume while decreasing pressure, we would be more successful. It would be better for the engine internals, and take less HP to run the oil pump.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Now, just like Paul Harvey- The Rest Of The Story![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For the amount of runs on the engine, the bearings look good. The front main bearing showed some crank flex, but I attribute that to the blower drive, since the front showed the most.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I'm interested to see if the rod bearing wear is confined to a couple of rods, or the center ones. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The pic of the rod bearing shows the effect of geometric irregularities. This could be because of crank flex, but there are other possible causes. A slightly bent rod, detonation, or rod journals ground with a slight 'hourglass' shape can also cause this wear. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is even more to this story though, and I suspect it probably contributed to the wear- We misused the rev limiter this year. Instead of setting it higher than we needed, and only having it there in an emergency, we ran against the rev limiter, using it to determine the max RPM we hit each run.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sparky Smith was kind enough to point out the error of our ways, and the explanation made perfect sense to me. What we were doing was having some pistons loaded, then randomly unloaded, in no certain order. I can't help believe that this probably added to our crank flex.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The bearing clearances are one of those things that Dale and I have discussed in depth for the past year. I don't believe we can open the clearances up enough to not show wear from crank flex-the flex is bound to be more than the additional .002 or so that we would open them up. Nor do I think that it is necessary. The mains have the following clearances F = .0035, M = .0035, R = .004, and the rods have .025-.075. The Mains are 2.75", and the rods are 2.1"[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Increasing bearing clearances are not necessary in my opinion, but finding out why we have that wear is. I truly believe proper use of the rev limiter will help, but I have no doubt that we will still have crank flex with the 3 main bearing setup.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]GOATROPER02 , of Ross Racing Engines, is taking over our engine machine work. Hopefully, he'll weigh in here with his thoughts![/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

I'd like to see these bearings in my hand to look for things I can't see in a pic.....

That being said,you are looking at some crank flex which I dont know if you will ever stop with a 3 main block.....does this engine now have some sort of crank support for the blower pulley? If it doesnt I would look into building one. (I looked back and I see It does.)



Also I see a ton of trash having run through the bearings also.....alot of what you are looking at is dirt....that has nothing to do with stress.

I see it in the skirts also.

Tony

 

Also your Crower billet is tough enough(heat treat) to stand abuse without scratching like that.....again I will say a lot of what the crank shows is debris.....Even when bearings are beat up and babbit is sqeezing out one edge from getting loaded.....you will see stress cracks in the babbit.....but the crank will look brand new.

Coated bearings will not protect from debris.....keep that in mind.

Here are coated mains from 2 different engines making over 800 HP each that have well over 1000 laps plus dyno time.......motors in for normal freshening..... They could have been put right back in.

When an engine is cleaned properly at assembly time....and has a proper filter system...oil/and ventilation ..... This is what a bearing should look like.

That's my thought looking at some pics....I'm sure we'll know more when I see parts in person.

 

Tony, On the pressure side of the dry sump, we have a Wix 20 micron oil filter. On the scavenge side, we have a 3 micron filter, between the pump and the oil reservoir.

That is far more filtration than most engines have, so I'm guessing that filtration is probably not our problem?

 

That is good.....could be from assembly or ingesting though breathers?How is tank vented? Also dont forget.....if you go to a vacum system you can pull dirt inboard also....crank seals/ect.....and Im not sure how much you can ingest through the bugcatcher without an aircleaner....I need to see cylinder walls first.

We will talk when I can look first hand....

 

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The stock priority oiling system is very good, no doubt about it. Adding the dry sump and more volume only adds to the success of the design!

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Even though we had plenty of oil to the piston pins this year, it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about next year. We're discussing going to vacuum in the engine next year, so any benefit of 'splash oiling' we had will be lost. Even if we have adequate pin oiling, we can still benefit from cooling the pistons with oilers.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I don't agree, however, that we need to run 100 psi in this engine, for it to survive-not even close! I think if we could enlarge our oil ports, thereby increasing volume while decreasing pressure, we would be more successful. It would be better for the engine internals, and take less HP to run the oil pump.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Now, just like Paul Harvey- The Rest Of The Story![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For the amount of runs on the engine, the bearings look good. The front main bearing showed some crank flex, but I attribute that to the blower drive, since the front showed the most.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I'm interested to see if the rod bearing wear is confined to a couple of rods, or the center ones. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The pic of the rod bearing shows the effect of geometric irregularities. This could be because of crank flex, but there are other possible causes. A slightly bent rod, detonation, or rod journals ground with a slight 'hourglass' shape can also cause this wear. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is even more to this story though, and I suspect it probably contributed to the wear- We misused the rev limiter this year. Instead of setting it higher than we needed, and only having it there in an emergency, we ran against the rev limiter, using it to determine the max RPM we hit each run.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sparky Smith was kind enough to point out the error of our ways, and the explanation made perfect sense to me. What we were doing was having some pistons loaded, then randomly unloaded, in no certain order. I can't help believe that this probably added to our crank flex.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The bearing clearances are one of those things that Dale and I have discussed in depth for the past year. I don't believe we can open the clearances up enough to not show wear from crank flex-the flex is bound to be more than the additional .002 or so that we would open them up. Nor do I think that it is necessary. The mains have the following clearances F = .0035, M = .0035, R = .004, and the rods have .025-.075. The Mains are 2.75", and the rods are 2.1"[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Increasing bearing clearances are not necessary in my opinion, but finding out why we have that wear is. I truly believe proper use of the rev limiter will help, but I have no doubt that we will still have crank flex with the 3 main bearing setup.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]GOATROPER02 , of Ross Racing Engines, is taking over our engine machine work. Hopefully, he'll weigh in here with his thoughts![/FONT]
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Hope there is not eny big problems, but than again you'll fix it
What kind of rev limiter did you use?

Kjell

.......................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

Thanks Tony-those bearings are headed your way!

Kjell, it's an ETC rev limiter: http://fuelinjectionent.com/webstore/product_info.php?products_id=161&osCsid=orf2ghd5uu5jcudgqpm2ku11r7

Rex, it was great talking to you about Stu Van Dyne's theory! Ironically, as soon as I hung up , I received a conference call from Pops29, and his engine builder, Kenny Boyd, owner of Valley Balancing.


Kenny had just finished cleaning, magging, and psi checking the block-it came out fine! Kenny had the same assessment- go to coated bearings and heavier oil! He too, thought our clearances were fine-said we could even close them up some with the coated bearings.

Both of the above conversations caused me to pull over on the side of the road. I want to add H2O injection on the FlatCad, and had talked to a couple of dealers for Snow Performance Parts. Unfortunatly, they didn't want to take the time to listen to what I needed, but instead kept wanting to sell me a computer controller to run the injection system. That would be great, but it's not allowed in the Vintage class.

So, this morning I decided to make the 300 mile round trip drive to visit Snow Performance Parts. After explaining what I needed, they said no problem! One guy headed out to grab the setup I need, while the other guy explained it to me. It's very simple- a psi switch is activated at a preset psi (ours will be 7psi), and kicks the electric pump on, that supplies the injector. As boost falls below that preset number, the pump kicks off. I'll need to tap the intake for the boost hose fitting, and the injector hat for the H2O injector, and do a little plumbing and wiring.

I'm real curious to see how this effects our intake temps, and HP, on the dyno!

 

Humm that looks very interesting there Buddy............
wonder what the amperage draw on the pump is........

 

11 Amps at 220 psi.

Carl, please send me your address- It seems I've misplaced it!

 

Well i am gonna give this a try to see if i can post pics and a little commentary as well if this dont work be patient ill send buddy the pics and he will post them. Anywho here is a few progress photos on the aero side of flatcad. Drip rails have been removed and are in process of being bolted back on. Door handles are gone as well. The crappy old wore out door latches went to file 13 as well. I have made new ones using some bear claw latches some recycled carb linkage and a door pin and bushing set. Normaly installing these latches is no big deal as most people use solenoids and such to get in but that is not really an option here so instead a mechanical push button will be used and no you cant buy the damn things so just like everything else on the flatcad it will be a one off custom made part. Also we have a new sponsor as well the chrome shop mafia has sponsored us an entire roof off a 379 peterbuilt truck yes i said a peterbuilt haha. With this roof and a bit of fiberglass work we will make the front air fairings for the flatcad. As you can see in the pic i have drawn the outline of the tire placement to give you an idea. Buddy had posted a pic awhile back of what the front fairing kinda looks like. Thats it for now all you flatcad fans stay tuned

Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app

 

Wow, you are getting things done. I am anxious to see that piece of fiberglass. I am still making the plug for the inner part of the air scoop. I have had lots of setbacks but I am making progress.

John

 

Looking good Randy! Those bolt on drip rails will have a few guys scratching their heads! Lol!

John, I can hardly wait to see the 'glass work!

 

Looking good please more picture!
On the engine, do you need to make new heads?
First snow over here, it's gona be a long winter..
But as last winter the Flatcad crew inspire us all to run down to the garage!

..................................
Taildragger&fenderless

 

For some reason I got lost here. I don't quite understand the drip rail thing removing them and then bolt them on?

Regards,
-Joemac

 

The 2012 rules allowed for the drip rails to be removed in comp coupe class, but required them in the altered class

The 2013 rules allow for them to be removed in both classes, so we no longer plan to bolt them back on.

 

Well that has since changed as we no longer need them at all, but because we run two classes alt. class required them and comp coupe didnt

Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app

 

Thank you sir, I feel much better now...

 

Velcro boys velcro