Will E15 Fuel damage your car?

Copied from Fox News Today''

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When it comes to ethanol, AAA wants to keep things simple. At least until drivers are better educated.
The American Automobile Association is asking the EPA to suspend sales of E15 gasoline because a survey of its members found that 95 percent of them don’t know what it is and could unknowingly damage their cars as a result.
E15, a mix of 85 percent gasoline and 15 percent ethanol, was recently approved for sale by the EPA as a way to increase the use of renewable fuels, but it comes with a caveat.
While E10 (a 10 percent ethanol blend) is approved for nearly all gasoline-powered vehicles, by law E15 can be used only by cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year and later, because it could have an adverse affect on the engines and emissions systems of older vehicles. According to the Renewable Fuels Association, 62 percent of the vehicles on the road today are cleared to use it, and regulations require pumps dispensing E15 to be clearly labeled with this information, but AAA thinks more needs to be done.
In a statement, AAA’s President and CEO, Robert Darbelnet wrote that “the sale and use of E15 should be suspended until additional gas pump labeling and consumer education efforts are implemented to mitigate problems for motorists and their vehicles,” adding that “consumers should carefully read pump labels and know their auto manufacturer’s recommendations to help prevent any problems from E15.”
According to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, those problems could include engine damage caused by the corrosive ethanol, even in the late model cars that the EPA says are good to go. The organization, which represents 12 major automakers, including Ford, GM and Chrysler, says its own long-term durability tests found that E15 could cause a host of issues for even newer cars, including misfires, increased emissions and costly damage to engine components like valve stems and cylinder heads.
Its members seem to agree.
Only flex-fuel vehicles designed to burn fuel blends that contain up to 85 percent ethanol, 2013 model year Fords, 2012 Model year GM cars and Porsches built since 2001 are specifically approved by their manufacturers to use E15. BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen have already said that their warrantees will not cover E15-related damage, while eight others, including Ford and GM, say E15 use may void coverage on unapproved cars. That leaves just 12 percent of the vehicles on the road fully compliant with E15, according to the Alliance.
In July, a service station in Lawrence, Kansas, became the first in the nation to offer E15 and AAA says that only a handful of stations have followed suit, mostly in Corn Belt states, so it wants the EPA to act now before the fuel is widely adopted.
Although EPA has not responded directly to AAA regarding the request, it has issued a statement saying it shares the association’s concerns over E15 awareness, but that the labels “will help ensure consumers are aware about which vehicles are approved for its use.”
The head of the Renewable Fuels Association was less diplomatic. According to the Detroit News, the Association’s president and CEO, Bob Dinneen, accused AAA of being the back pocket of the petroleum industry, saying that “the fact is E15 has been the most aggressively and comprehensively tested fuel in the history of the agency.”
The EPA regulation does not mandate the sale of E15, but simply allows it. According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, many serviced station operators are taking a wait and see attitude before investing in the infrastructure needed to supply it.
In the meantime, you don’t have to travel to the Midwest to see what E15 is capable of in the right machine. Just tune into the Daytona 500 in February. NASCAR’s Sprint Cup cars have been using the fuel since 2011. With the full support of their manufacturers, of course."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/12/04/will-e15-fuel-damage-your-car/#ixzz2E6XPnhq1​

 

From a combustion standpoint ethanol works fine. You just have to burn a lot of it. So while a blower motor can probably be set up to make more power on E15 than straight gasoline, fuel flow will be higher. Energy content by volume is lower, so typical daily-driver part-throttle BSFC is going to go in the toilet, E15's gonna cost you 10% in gas mileage and, since we buy the stuff by volume you'll pay more at the pump too.

As for fuel system components...if you've got any elastomers (hoses, seals, etc. and that includes all the stuff in your pump, carb, regulator, injectors, fuel pickup in the tank, etc.) in your fuel plumbing that you don't KNOW to be alcohol-compatible, or if you've got any significant aluminum bits in your fuel system including carb or regulator bodies, aluminum fuel lines, etc. (yes, it corrodes aluminum) IMO you'd better stay away from E15.

Bet you never thought you'd see the day that plastic fuel system parts would be safer than metal...

 

That's the result of making cars for stupid people. The auto industry has been "dumbing down" cars for decades. Now we have a generation of kids who have no clue how to drive a stick shift, check the oil or tire pressure. Self parking cars are comming and idiots are already blaming the cars when they hit the gas rather than the brakes.

 

Here is the rub, 10-15% is the breaking point. It depends on your car if E15 is going to hurt it or not.

The wife for instance owns an '05 Silverado, it is not a flex fuel truck. When we bought the truck we went to a new owners meeting because they had free food. They advised us at that time to not run the truck on alcohol. The dealer called me about a week ago and reminded me that the truck will not run on alcohol. Then said that it will not run properly on E15 and to please make sure that the wife knows not to use it. The computer does not know what to do with it it doesn't have the proper program or sensors to handle that volum of alcohol.

Will one of my old hoopties run on it? Sure they will I have been setting uo my cars to be alcohol resistant for a long time. I will need to rejet to allow for the added alcohol or carry gas if I am going to kansas, they don't have E15 in missouri yet, but they do in kansas hence the call from the GM dealer.

 

A few years back on 'The Amazing Race' they took a bunch of Americans and sent them off in little diesel something-or-another SUVs across...half of Spain? It's been a long time now, can't recall.

Fascinating to see how many of 'em disabled the trucks by putting gasoline in them.

 

Damn if I know but all that I can say that every "the sky is falling" panic of the last 50 years has proven to be a hoax.

Hot rodding was dead when gas hit 75 cents a gallon....

The valves would all burn up when they dropped the lead from the gasoline....

The electrical grid would fold up on Y2K.... (still got your generator?)

All panics that never materialized.

I'm pretty sure that with all the lawyers that the gasoline industry researched all the ifs before they made it widely available. I don't believe that it is good for your hotrod but I doubt seriously that it is dangerously detrimental to your ride.

I tend to not believe all the hype. I have a buddy that keeps me up to date on all the panic situations. I have saved a lot of money over the years by betting against them. JMHO.

 

I don't panic I already know that the computerized truck won't run on it.

Hell I didn't panic when the AIDs scare hit, I wasn't dating any of them guys anyway.

Besides all of this is going to sound a little foolish when the world comes to an end this month.

 

Maybe,maybe not.
They sell 100% gas at one station in my little town,and they sell a LOT of it. My son had a 140 mile daily commute for a while in his O/T late model. I suggested he check the difference in mileage,and now he only buys 100% gas.The difference in MPG was significant,even paying more per gallon.

 

I'm not an engineer, but Nissan says in the owner's manual, do not use it in their cars. It has caused Check Engine Lights. So there is something to it.

 

SEMA and AAA have filed letters with the EPA demanding that they (EPA) drop the E15 requirement.

 

This subject has come up alot. All I can say is I ve had to use the 10% mix unless Iam near the very few stations that offer E free.Only after two years my rubber parts on my tub are like rock.I have one of my old carb feed lines now holding a cabinet door shut in the shop.

Thank You to the SEMA polictical wing for fighting for us!!!

 

I tell all my customers that run carbs and mechanical fuel pumps to fill up at the one station in town that has ethanol free gas. Even the 10% stuff will kill any kind of old rubber part in the fuel system.

Anything newer than that is kinda off topic here isn't it--doesn't matter if it 5% or 15%.

 

A vehicle that is not flex fuel will run on E15 but it will more than likely cause the SES light to come on and set lean fuel trim codes i.e. P0171 and/or P0174. I have already seen this and I work in a dealership in MO. When I went to the Stray Kat 500 this year and we stopped for gas in KS they also had E15 E20 and E30 in addition to E10 and E85. Ethanol is hard on rubber in the fuel system.

 

I cant even run 10 percent in my lawnmower as it eats the carb diaphragms,

 

So what do people do in places like Houston, Texas? All we have is 10% alky gas. True, I add an additive every other fill-up, but is that enough?

And I think the Maya missed it by a year.

 

Fred, we have been buying 10% up here for close to 30 years. The sky is not falling, you will be fine. My 15 year old Briggs and Stratton has run on it its whole life.

 

Thanks. You know how it is. Someone said the sky was falling and I went looking for my umbrella.

I've never had a problem, but I always use an additive. But I've been doing that forever. My dad did it and it just carried over to me. In fact, one of the only things he did that I don't, is use STP oil treatment. Not in a newer engine, anyway.

 

The shit sucks. After 40 years of bending wrenches I have found it causes the varnish in your engine along with the dryness of the alcohol to hang the valves in the guides and presto you need a valve job. Seems to happen more in GM products than the rest but all fall victim to the adverse affects of dryness.. I will never recommend or use the stuff. What ever happened to the starving kids in Africa. Use the corn for making bread and send it there on subsity. Higher octane makes for more efficient fuel economy. F@*# the scientists and engineers as they are only qualified to make twinkies or drive trains.

 

Fred
I don't use any additives in my stuff and all you can buy around here is 10% ethanol.

it is the newer cars that are going to take a hit, our old suff would run on panther piss if we tunned it right. So I would not sweat it on an old hooptie.

 

Hooptie!?

 

Naw Benno, most of the newer stuff adjusts based off what the computer is reading. Where it does cause issues is with cars with some miles on them and built up gunk and varnishes. The Alky is a great solvent and cleans the system out..........clogging filters and injectors.

 

I am more worried about what is going to happen on the 21st. This whole end of the world thing has got me really concerned.

 

I just finished an overhaul on a '53 Ford 4 banger that had less than 2 hours on a full rebuild. The PO had let the engine sit over a winter and when he went to start it in the spring it made a pop and lost compression. I found 3 of the 4 intake valves glued open, three bent push rods, one broken tappet and chewed up cam shaft. I've "revivied" dozens of old engines that had set for decades but is seems once they've run on ethanol your chances of bringing one back without a complete fuel system and valve train refresh are pretty slim. I hear AvGas is much more stable. I know the ethanol sucks moisture out of the air at a rapid rate and have heard it has an expected shelf life of <20 days. Can't be good for anything that sits much, even with aditives.

 

I've got a 54 Corvette in the shop that has been giving me fits. It was restored and the set for about 5 years. Anything with rubber parts (including the "new" fuel pump, diaphram was cracked and split) had to be replaced. Pulled the "new" fuel tank and cleaned it, cleaned out all of the fuel lines (rust) and went from there. I've had the tops off all 3 carbs about a half dozen times. First time was to get the white corrosion out of them, rest of the time for trash they picked up even after everything was flushed.

Kind of hard to explain to the owner why I'm replacing and cleaning stuff that was ok when he parked it, but I think it's due to the ethanol.

I've also had several customers drag in cars that don't get driven very often with needles stuck shut for no reason. Never had trouble with that before ethanol.

God bless the government. Chalk up another vote for subsidizing growing grain to feed the hungery, not to put in our fuel.

 

I thought that the subsidy for ethanol was supposed to go away this year. They must have renewed it as without subsidization they can't make any money from methanol.

 

Since there aren't leap days in Mayan calendar, maybe the world ended in March.

 

It almost makes you miss the old days with leaded fuel.

 

Man I'll agree to this after all the added BS these new and improved cars are actually harder to work on and get worse fuel mileage than a lot of older stuff! Give me a carburetor, and points ignition any day !!! I still trust my 5 senses and brain more than sticking a computer on a car to tell me something's wrong. After all the brain is the worlds greatest computer BAR NONE !!!

 

Another doom and gloom end of the world Ethanol thread? What's a matter with you guys, can't adapt to a changing world? It's a fucking piss poor hot rodder who can't make adjustments to themselves and their vehicles

 

I will impart some knowledge I gained from my friend who is an engineer for a fuel nozzle manufacturer (Husky). They have extensively tested 15-25% ethanol blends in anticipation of this, and apparently that is a sweet spot for really bad things to happen in your car. Specifically plastics and elastomers basically dissolve.

He recommended not even using it in an E85 car, but the big thing to watch out for is putting it in older vehicles with stock fuel systems. Don't do it!