TECH: The extensive yet incomplete Ford V8 Swapper's Guide!

THAT's my point exactly...I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUILD A FORD......so I use junkyard parts and chevy motors.

 

Well done Fat Hack... very well done!

 

I thought I'd take a few moments to offer some reflections, notes and general observations associated with the various engine families I've discussed, and throw in a few ramblings as far as swapping them into other chassis goes. Like I say, these are just based on my own personal experiences and point-of-view, so take them as you will...

SMALL BLOCK

The small block Ford is a darling on paper. It's narrow width and light weight make it a stellar choice for swaps where you're watching the pounds and space may be tight. It also has the advantage of boasting LOTS of horsepower potential through an extensive range of aftermarket support. New and used speed equipment for these engines, as well as the very engines themselves can be had cheap these days...making it the best Power-Per-Dollar member of the engine families we've been discussing, second only to it's 351W sibling.

Another point that I really like about the small block Ford is that it looks so damn GOOD dressed in full trim! Whether it's got Cobra or Holmany Moody finned covers and a Weber carb set-up, or Cal Custom covers with low rise dual quads, or a vintage Ford small block tri-power set-up complete with the oval air cleaner...a decked-out small Ford just looks tough and pretty at the same time!

The only real 'drawbacks' to running a small Ford is that in some cases, the stock oil filter location can be an obstacle, although a filter relocation kit will handle that issue easily enough. Another factor that sometimes crops up is the length of these engines with all accessories installed. In most cars, this isn't a real problem...but if the engine compartment is a short one, fan clearance generally raises a red flag! Ford Racing and some aftermarket companies have stepped up to offer kits recently to reduce the overall length of the small block Ford. These kits generally include a new timing cover and water paump, along with shallow pulleys and the needed brackets to mount accessories such as the alternator, power steering pump or AC compressor. It affords the hot rodder a little more breathing room in front of his small block.

The fact that these engines were produced from 1962 up until the late 90s/2000 only helps matters...meaning that there are LOTS of them out there, and that they've proven themselves over the decades!

351W

For the most part, what applies to the small block as written above also applies to the 351W. Of course, the taller deck height makes the engine a little wider and a tiny bit heavier overall, but in many cases, it will fit wherever it's little brother can go!

The 351W offers the hot rodder more cubic inches and a longer stroke for applications where a little more low-end grunt is needed, such as larger cars and light trucks, but a properly built 351W will still rev plenty. It's bore/stoke combination nearly mirrors that of the 350 Chevy, for the sake of comparrison.

"Cool" induction systems are pretty much nill for the 351W, though...but performance-minded single four barrel intakes abound aplenty for them. There is said to be a dual quad aftermarket manifold under development for the big Windsor, so that may be something to watch for if you want to go with a more traditional "hot rod vibe" on one of these mills.

Personally, I've had several 351W powerd cars and many small block vehicles, and I've come to love these engines! Easy to work on, cheap, and reliable to a fault! Don't believe all the stuff you hear about them being light years behind the small block Chevy in terms of power...some of the Bow Tie Guys will claim that simply adding an open element air cleaner to an otherwise stock 350 Chevy instantly creates a 450 horsepower engine, and that a fully built SBF will only muster about 200 horsepower or something like that...but we all know better, don't we?! I say, let 'em have their fantasy!!

351C

You just gotta love a Cleveland! Even though it hasn't been installed in an American production vehicle since 1974, it's still the motor that gets the Ford powered NASCAR racers around the track every weekend...some 33 years later!

Moving down a few notches to backyard based hot rodding, the Cleveland still offers us a dynamite package ripe with performance potential. For the average street driven vehicle, a 2V 351C with an aftermarket 4V intake designed for 2V heads is the hot ticket, producing a motor that pulls well throughout the useable RPM range. The 4V Cleveland tends to be a little 'lazy' in stock form down in the lower RPM band, unless it just happens to be a Boss 351 with the high compression, solid lifter cam and all the trimmings...then hold on tight!

(Of course, the "Aussie" heads offer the best deal...4V combustion chambers with 2V port dimensions. Considered exotica at one time, they've actually become much more widely available here in the States in recent years, so it is worth noting!)

As far as Cleveland engine swaps go, they tend to fall 'middle of the road' in terms of weight and external dimensions. Still their weight is on par with a small block Chevy, so it isn't like they're awfully heavy or anything...and just as with the Chev...an aluminum intake knocks precious pounds off the package while adding power!

The only real wrench-in-the-works as far as Cleveland swaps go is cost and availability. Being that they haven't been used since 74, they simply arent as plentifull as the other engine families, compounded by the fact that they only hit the streets in 1970...giving them a five model-year run. Still, Ford folks love these engines, and they do seek them out. They turn up for sale on a fairly regualr bases, but command higher dollar values on average then the other Ford engines I've been discussing. Still, if you should happen to stumble upon a bargain priced 351C, consider yourself lucky and snatch it up!

351/400M

For anyone that loves to root for the underdog, this is your motor! I say that not in any derrogatory fashion, but simply to underscore the point that these engines have never been held in favor by performance oriented car folks, and likely never will. A mild Cleveland will generally out-run them, but that doesn't mean that they should be forgotten entirely.

The silver lining in the 351/400M cloud is that they were widely produced throughout the 70s and that they are very easy to find and afford to this day. I would recommend picking up the 400 cube version, because it won't cost you any more to scoop up a used one than it would to buy a used 351M, and the additional 49 cubic inches equate to 'free' power. A halfway savvy shopper can easily find a complete, running 'donor vehicle' with a 351/400M in it and drive it home for under $500...which represents a heckuva bargain...netting you a 400 inch motor, a transmission, all the little brackets and accessories and many other 'little things' you'll use when swapping the mill into your latest creation! Then you can scrap or part out the rest of the hulk and reclaim some of your hard-earned coin!

Performance parts are still avaialble for these engines, since they use the same camshafts that work in a Cleveland, and stuff like valve covers and 351C 2V headers and exhaust manifolds will bolt up to the "M" motors. Distributors interchange as well, so that opens up many factory and aftermarket options...from a 351C points style distributor, to a stock electronic ignition, to any aftermarket distributor that tickles your fancy. Intake manifolds are unique to the 351/400M, but Edelbrock still offers a Performer for them, and others have offered aluminum four barrel intakes in the past. Cheap stuff at swap meets, but be sure you're getting a 351/400M intake and not a Cleveland one!

One 'glitch' worth noting also applies to the 429/460 engines...and that is the bellhousing. The bolt pattern on the bellhousings for these engines is pretty large, which can create some issues where firewall/trans tunnel clearance is tight. This can lead to mounting the engien farther forward than originally expected, or doing some hammer or sawzall work on your sheetmetal! The 351C uses the small block bellhousing, so it tends to fit nicer in tight tunnel confines.

Still, I tend to regard the 351/400M as one of the great overlooked motors of our time! As far as "Bargain Basement V8s" go, it's a tough act to follow!!

FE

Who doesn't dig an FE?! These motors represent overkill to the tenth power! Built like tanks on a late 50s design, they litterally run forever and will take about anything you care to throw at them! Yes, they ARE large, no doubt...but they actually weigh much less than what most people expect. Lose that 90 pound factory cast iron intake manifold and bolt on an aftermarket aluminum one, and the 40 pounds you just shed will put you in small block Chevy territory as far as weight goes!

Additionally, the good old FE also offers the budget minded rodder an outstanding bargain! These engines were used for years in large cars and even longer in pickups and other trucks. The 352 and 390 examples will be the cheapest and most plentifull. That said, as with the notion of seeking out a 400M over a 351M for the same money, I'd recommend buying a 390. It won't cost ya any more than a 352, and you gain almost 40 cubes...again, for 'free'!

(As an example, I just purchased a complete, running 390 out of a 1968 F100 for $100 locally. I had been considering a 351C, but hadn't found a good deal on one when the 390 came along. That lead to me doing some research to see if an FE swap was feasable in my case, and I concluded that it was, so now the build is on! That is largely what lead to this thread...I was compiling info and photos to help me decide which motor to run, and settled on the 390! I thought that having this info available in one place might help other Fordophiles in their swapping endeavors!!)

Speed parts are out there in force for the FE engines. They were there all throughout the heyday of hot rodding in the late 50s and all through the 60s, so multi-carb induction...both factory and aftermarket...can be scored for these beasts, as well as all types of dress-up goodies and speed equipment. The more exotic examples of these engines, such as a the 428 Cobra Jet and the Medium Riser or High Riser 427 motors require application-specific intakes matched to the heads...but there is plenty available for the garden variety 390s...so backyard builders need not fret or feel left out!

The stumbling block that will trip up swappers dealing with the FE will be it's size. The dimensions listed in the cahrt at the begining of this thread can decieve you...the FE is tall, for sure...but more than that, it's also LOW! The "Y" block design puts the bottom of the oil pan, even at the non-sump end, down below the motor mounts a good ways. In some chassis (like a Mustang II!) this can create some fitment challenges! The motor is also wide...and the exhaust ports have a downward turn to them, much like a Pontiac V8, but with evenly spaced ports. This makes fitting exhaust manifolds or header a little interesting in oddball swap applications, but hot rodding is all about overcoming obstacles to build something different, cool or faster, right?!

Another thing worth mentioning is that the oil filter sticks stright out on some FEs, although different adapters are available to 'correct' this 'problem' if need be. It isn't an engine for everyone, but if the allure of running a vintage-dressed big block appeals to you...then a good ol' 390 may be just the bargain you've been waiting for!!!

429/460

These are the giants of the Ford family! BIG in every possible way and heavy as hell! You don't get all them cubic inches for FREE, Mister...they come with a hefty price tag as far as size and weight goes!

Still, these engines make great power, and are well supported by the aftermarket. In stock form, the old 429 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet examples were a sight to behold, and duplicating that kind of power with parts and technology available today is relatively easy stuff. 460 engines of the "smog era" are quickly awakened with better heads, decent cams, and deeper breathing induction. Distributors that fit 351C and 351/400M engines also happen to fit 429/460 engines...so lighting the fire shouldn't be a problem...whether you lean towards breaker points, dual points, eletronic or what-have-you...it's all available!

You will also find that 460s can be bought surprisingly cheap! The older 429 engines tend to command a premium, but the 460 actually offers a more favorable bore x stroke ratio and again...there's that whole "more cubic inches" thing going on! Might as well nab the bigger motor...especially since you can likely score one for less than a smaller 429!

Size and weight are the primary handicaps when dealing with a Lima series engine swap...they simply will not fit into some vehicles (without MAJOR surgery!), and sometimes, your chassis/suspension just won't take the additional weight that comes along with the 460 swap, so be double damned sure your project can handle it before spending your money on a huge & heavy motor that just doesn't fit!

As stated above in the 351/400M section, the bellhousing on these massive motors can be an issue in restrictive trans tunnel or firewall situations, but if the car is big and tough enough to accept the 429/460 engine...then fitting the associated transmission behind it ought to be small potatoes! Keep in mind that you CAN bolt a C4 to these motors (as well as the 351/400M) using the bellhousing I pictured earlier in this thread.

All in all, every Ford engine has it's ups and it's downs, but the natural ingenuity of the common hot rodder can more than overcome any challenge in most cases, and another cool Ford-powered creation will soon hit the streets! If this thread has helped anyone at all in figuring out some of the 'mysteries' and 'problems' related to swapping Ford engines around into different vehicles, then it's been worth all the research, picture hunting, labeling and typing! If anyone has any additional info, tips or observations of a constructive nature to add, that would be awesome! No ONE person can ever know it all...so having the input of experienced Ford tinkerers from around HAMB-Land to help cover the many in's and out's of Ford "Swapability" would be deeply appreciated by those new to the realm of Ford V8s, and those attempting swaps for the first time, I'm sure!!

 

good work fat hack!!!! how about something on pulleys had one heck of time finding pullys that would work on 351 into 37 ford i bought a pile of pullys crank, w/p p/s and the bracket to squeeze it into the 37 not doen yet but used a 3 groove pully from a 428 and the 3 groove water pump pully from same, machined off 3 groove to clear pump housing, spoke to a lot of experts they were all wrong put it was a pain, went throught few yard to get all the stuff, it just took to much time and effort and there is not much billet stuff either except for the one guy wanted about 1200 bucks for a pully set up i used v belt not serpt. my comments for today

 

The pulley situation as far as Ford engines goes deffinitely SHOULD be explored, researched and posted in detail I agree! I'm just starting to deal with that issue on my project, and I have it easy...FE stuff is fairly cut and dried compared to what you end up dealing with on other Ford engines!

It would be an exhaustive project to try and do a comprehensive list of what-works-with-what as far as Ford pulleys and fornt engine accessory drive (FEAD) issues goes...but I'll admit that it would be damned handy to have!

I'll work on it and post something more when I have something for ya!

 

"Cool" induction systems are pretty much nill for the 351W, though...but performance-minded single four barrel intakes abound aplenty for them. There is said to be a dual quad aftermarket manifold under development for the big Windsor, so that may be something to watch for if you want to go with a more traditional "hot rod vibe" on one of these mills.

As I was researching options for the Mustang, I came across several places that said they had "spacers" to use regular 302 intakes on Windsors. I guess they're just adapters, and I haven't actually seen one, but supposedly they are out there.

Jay

 

impressive work Gregg. nice write up.

 

Good job and about the pulleys,the non power steering pullies are the hardest to find and I found the smallblock and 351-C pulleys will work on either. I dont know why they designed it when you had p/s the belt that runs the water pump goes around the p/s pump and the alternator is by itself when it should of been the opposite. Jeff

 

One thing that Ive run across is that a 460 torque convertor will not work with a 429 crank. The hole in the 429 crank is smaller thern one in a 460 crank and the convertor will not go in all the way. If you try to pull the bellhousing for the c-6 in it will break the back of the block off or the bellhousing ears. Ask me how I know that for sure some time

 

I've only done it the other way around myself...putting a C6 from an early 429 behind a 1977 460 and it worked fine for me in my old 72 Torino, but your experience recalls a friend of mine who busted a C6 bellhousing trying to drop a 429 into his 78 Mercury Marquis! Not sure if it was a converter issue or not, as he corrected the problem by yanking the C6 and converter out of his old 429 Mustang and put that trans behind the original Mustang motor in the Marquis!

 

Struck this myself back in the 70's when replacing a customers 302W with a 302C,they don't have 'strictly' interchangeble bell housings,but will bolt up and will work,as long as you prepared to 'forget' theres a couple of bolts missing.

Re. performance gear for the Clevo ,theres a ton of it available down here,( i have an old mate in Oregon who imports it and sells on fleabay)and i know all of the usuals made stuff for Windsors,just doesn't have the older style look about...multi weber IDA' etc .
The OZ Ford falcon six with cross flow head is a clevo combustion chamber design,so for inliners theres piles of gear like roller rockers etc to work with.

 

A 429 convertor will work in a 460, it just will fit loose into the crank hole. Whether that would be a problem in the long run I dont know. I was putting a crank in a 460 from the bottom in a used car and the dealership parts dept gave me the wrong crank, which was for a 429. Lot of work to change it back after

 

FE manual bell housing...

how easy are these to find? Does anyone have one for sale?

 

Manual bellhousings for FE engines are fairly easy to find, actually. Maybe not the exact part number that I pictured earlier in this thread...but most are very similar.

Ford used the FE motors in trucks for many many years, and lots of those had manual transmissions of the Top Loader variety. You may not nccessarily want the truck transmission, but the bellhousing will work for you if you plan to run a typical Top Loader three or four speed tarnsmission.

Also, many cars came with FE engines and manual transmissions...everything from 1958-70 full sized Ford and Mercury cars, to 1967-70 Mustangs and Cougars, 1968-69 Torinos and Cyclones, 1966-67 Fairlanes and Comets/Cyclones (1968-69 Fairlanes share the Torino/Cyclone chassis) and 1967-69 Ranchero pickups.

If you hit e-bay, FE manual bellhousings turn up all the time. Do a search for "390 bellhousing" as well as "390 bell housing" and you'll usually get a few to pick from at any given time. Recently it seems that they tend to go for somewhere between $60 and $100 on average.

Hitting your local junkyard might score you one much cheaper, though. Being that so many vehicles came with FE engines and manual transmissions, there is still a good supply of these bellhousings out there...not difficult to find at all.

 

from my exp on small block ford is soemof the truck and cars have greatly different crank pullys it seems ford used larger dia crank pulley to slow down pump speed due to high rec motos in 3/4 -1 ton trucks and due to the large under hood space on the truck a truck crank pully can be longer by a few inches leaving a w/p pully in the wrong spot for some early street rods that need to close in the alt and p/s pump aka 35-38 fords just my 2 cents worth on vbelt pullys

 

Killer info, thanks!

 

What heads will fit a 352 block? I have cracked ex. manifolds & bolts broke off in the head. Can I use any other more common heads?

 

Alright Ford haters, you dont catch me running into all the posts about small block chevy's and dumping useless negative comments. I go to some SBC posts and try to offer helpful advice because lord knows I've had to work on plenty of SBC's in my day. If you HATE Fords whay are you here reading? Go away and leave us to our own. We dont like mickey mouse snap together engine kits. I prefer to use my brain occasionally. Thanks!

 

You can use 390 heads. Very easy to find and usually pretty cheap. A popular swap, actually. Also, heads from a 1970s 360 truck engine will work, and are about as cheap and common as the 390 heads.

 

The heads you need have the casting number that starts with D2TE,were used on trucks from 72 untill 76 which is the last year for the FE. These heads have hardened seats and quite common like previously mentioned,all FE heads have the tendency for the top exhaust manifold bolts to break so be carefull. Jeff

 

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this is whats in my 52 F1 i just picked up, dont know much about it other than its a 351c 2v, 3 speed auto from the looks of it what do you guys think? am i up sh*ts creek without a paddle

 

great post too , since im new to this its been a crap load of info i needed

 

Why do you think you are up a creek without a paddle,if the motor and trans are in good shape it should go down the road just fine. Without being able to see the bolt pattern of the trans I would say its a 351-C with a FMX trans,since it has a points distributor its most likely a cleveland as if it had a electronic distribtor it would be a modified. Finish hooking it up and see how it runs and go from there. Jeff

 

FMX trans behind a Cleveland 2V engine. Not a bad combo if it's in working order!

 

thanks for the help guys. im looking forward to the day i can pull up in front of the people calling it a POS, my "dream" car, yadda yadda yadda and lay a nice strip down. i realize it will take lots of time and dedication but with the help from this board it makes it that much easier. * insert corny movie ending score

 

GREAT thread! Very timely as I am going through my semi-rookie SBF build. Fortunately, all the brackets and pulleys were on the 302HO that I picked up. I had to get a smaller belt and route it a little differently because I have no A/C, P/S or (obviously) smog pump, but that was pretty straightforward after takign a few quick measurements and making sure I still had the right flow for the water pump.

I am bookmarking this one for sure!

 

ttt for a great tech topic.

 

Do you have a front bearing retainer for the SROD transmission?

 

Great post, will help putting something in the Merc

 

351 into a 64 Thunderbird have header problems . anybody????