Nova Clip In A Shoebox

Gee whizz. I didn't know I had such a Pile of Shit on my hands. According to most of you on this post I must not know Good from Bad and my entire career of chassis building has been a waste of time. Guess I'll just go Scrap this P.O.S. that I've driven nearly 10K with many a Smile around lot's of 30mph Curves at 45 and never rubbed a fender. Sure wish I had gotten all this information before I destroyed this 51 Vicky. I just had no idea I was so Fucked Up. Must be time to go buy a Honda Civic and retire. Damn!!
The Wizzard

 

Do it!! then come back and tell us how cool you are!!!!!!

 

My super mechanic who was head mechanic at the chevy dealer ( he was so good, when he quit working for them, they begged him to allow them to bring cars to his house to work on)...now thats highly unusual.

One day he watched a new mechanic assemble a new head valve job....the guy put the rubber O ring on first, then the rest of the assembly ( this of course cuts the oil seal and makes it useless)...Arthur said you are putting the valve together wrong and started walking off when he heard " I have been doing it this way all my life"...Arthur took a couple of steps more, turned around and said, "Well, you have been doing it WRONG all your life".

 

well now I know. I quess im just stuck in my old ways. id rather fix what broken on my old cars than change them up.kinda funny too since I change engines interiors rearends. lol. but ive never clipped one of mine. aint saying I wont just haven't...yet.but I don't need power steering disc brakes and a caddilac ride now that's funny too cause im gonna straight axle a couple of them...ah hell never mind...lol but thanks guys for not jumpin my ass. I was really wantin to know.

 

I've got nothing against clips, but what's wrong with the front end that's under it Russ? After the killer section (in record time) I know a clip will be a piece of cake for you, but are you changing it just to change it? Lots of great stuff out there for stock shoebox suspensions like dropped uprights, Aerostar coils, disc brake conversions, power brake boosters, Volvo power steering, etc.

I know everything I just mentioned adds up to a lot more than a clip, but when I did the '76 Camaro clip on my wife's '48 Chevy pickup I rebuilt the whole thing. Every bearing, seal, ball joint, idler arm, etc. and that free clip (in EXCELLENT condition) cost me about $900 to rebuild, not to mention having it blasted and welding it in myself.

Unless there's something majorly wrong with the chassis (and I'd suspect there's not since you sectioned the car on that chassis) I'd say keep the stock front and upgrade it accordingly.

 

68 Vette, thanks for agreeing with me on this. I can't take all the credit because I was advised by a guy who does this stuff all day for a living and knows his GM clips.

Did two like this and they worked out great. Another the owner said he wanted the clip installed higher so he wouldn't have to buy the dropped spindles.
Well that pushed the motor/trans. that much higher up into the body. Ended up installing a large portion of a Cutlass floor hump into the car to clear everything.
Saved on the spindles, but a heck of a lot more work.

 

The main reasons I wouldn't use the stock clip under a shoebox is that the geometry sucked on them the day they left the factory floor. The steering boxes with their 45 degree angle lasted a very short time, bump steer was rampant, there is no camber curve what so ever, Roll center wasn't something even considered at the time, either. A lot of guys seem to think if it boinks up and down while driving it's a well functioning unit. I can't quite agree. In my mind it is more than worth it to up date to stuff that works better with todays driving conditions, is easily replaceable, and stops better. BUT, it also as to fit the car. I may be in the minority on the board, but I like stuff that will roll PistonBroke's 30 mph turns at 75... Lot's more fun than going straight. Nothing makes me crazier than driving an ill handling car of any age!

 

Be-bop, it amazes me how some folks just don't get it. A couple of them have repeated 56 inches for a front tread width....WRONG!!! Shoes have a 58" front tread width....they just keep repeating it....like my mechanic told someone who called him at 3 in the morrning to ask how much trans fluid to put into a newly rebuilt turbo 350....." Does the transmission have a damn dip stick ? Well, when it says full quit adding" ! along with a few words not allowed here.

I sold a really nice 53 ford panel truck that had a camaro front clip in it that I was told was put in by a guy that does quite a few of them. I was new to front clips and like an idiot was putting a Gibbons torsion bar in my F100...( big mistake)....I ended up selling the panel after it sat in my drive way for 2 years without me touching it...good thing it did not have the front sheet metal, because unless it was a 60's camaro front clip, then the camaro front clip would have been too wide for the truck.

The poor ole guy that bought it, put about $15,000 more in finishing it up...took it to the front end shop because he could not keep it in the road faster than 20 MPH...After 4 shops looked at it, all said the front end needed to be removed and one with correct geometry put in....he was one sick person....and so was I but that taught me a lesson...do your homework before putting in a front clip.

Some of these poor soles do not realize there is a lot more to placing the front end in than welding two parts together.....like the correct geometry....it can look "pretty" but thats about it....driving it above 20 mph may be a venture.

Of the two GM clips I have put in, neither one had a front end alignment...the f100 had 30,000 miles on it and the shoe I sold a year ago after driving it 8 years had a little over 8,000 trouble free miles on it.

My friend, after driving my 51 shoe, and not realizing he was doing a little over 80 on the interstate and thinking he was doing about 65, asked me to put a monte clip in his 54 ford s/w....he was amazed how nice it drove and he is 100% ford...

I have not replied so much about the front clips in years....the reason is those that don't know....seem to know it all.

S-10 is not fix for a shoe.....and yes, my fleetline has a s-10 rear end....its the wide one boys....not the 54.5 one.

 

The stock ford factory 15" wheels had about a 3/4" neg offset so the factory track width measured from center of the tires is 56" and measured at the wheel mounting surface is 57.5". See pic of this 1950 with the stock suspension & wheels without motor or trans and note how far the tire is in from the fender. The newer GM front steer clip's will handle better than there earlier rear steer clips hand down and parts are a little cheaper.

How do i know we use to install the nova rear steer in our Shoebox builds but switched to the front steer S10 about 15 years ago. This gold green 1951 we built about 16 years ago had an early nova w disk brakes added and we had to use the S10 15" spear tire wheels to get good fender to tire clearance.

The Erickson's / Extreme Kustoms 951 678-3520

 

Here is my 51 ford the day I bought it in 2003, it had a 58" tread width, I know a couple of folks with a stock shoe, will get their measurements soon.

Look at my shoe in previous post and how the front tires look stance wise....then imagine them with 2 inches more gap.

A few folks here posted that they widened their S-10 front end 3 inches and one said he used super wide wheels with crazy offsets to get the stance to look somewhat nornal after using an S-10 clip...I prefer to get it right the first time and not have to re-do my re-do.

 

THAT, my friends, is the perfect reason for clipping an old car. Thanks Chip, I agree with every word.




Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Here we are after 40+ replies....I think I need to start again!!

My intent was not to create a forum for guys to flap about "why do this??" or "that it will not work out"...or "my method is better"...My purpose is to document, with legitimate corresponding notes and measurements, the detailed process of installing a '70 Nova clip in a '50 Ford. Identifying the good, bad, ugly, and middle-ground of a Nova install has been missing from the HAMB, and I think (so far), from this Thread. I promise to report what went well and what did not. I hope this clears up some of the smog and haze floating around.


REPORT #1
So, anyway, I removed the front sheet metal, steering column from my sectioned shoebox, blocked it up on stands, removed firewall support brackets and then made a few measurements:

Ford Outside of tire to fenderwell clearance 3"
Ford Outside of frame @ body mount width 33 1/4"
Ford Inside of frame @body mount width 27 3/4"
Ford Hub to hub track width 57 1/4"
Ford Outside of tire to outside of tire track width 64"

Nova Hub to hub track width 57"
Nova Outside of tire to outside of tire track width 64"
Nova Inside of frame (8 1/2" behind axle centerline) 32 1/4"

Note: I used allthread to load the springs on Ford and Nova. The 8 1/2" Nova measurement yields the same reference point on both frames.

Preliminary conclusions:
1. Track width on Nova is very close to the Shoebox
2. Nova frame width at point of adaption is nearly 6" wider than the shoebox.
3. Steering box (rear steer) will end up quite close to the firewall.

Pics tell the story.

 

Russ V; Here are 2 photos of my bare frame after graph and several I just took today. Maybe these will help some being your headed pretty much to where I'm at now. When hooking up my steering column I used the stock column cut short with a bearing installed in the jacket and a double joint at the box to align the column back in the stock place at the dash. I have a 700-R4 hooked up to the stock shifter and P is Park. R is Reverse N is Nuteral and L is first gear in the 700R. That was no small job but well worth the work involved. Any other questions I'm more that willing to help answer. Just understand My way isn't the Only way but works grate for me.
The Wizzard

 

Follow up. That is a 70 Nova clip. Stock un cut coils, no dropped spindles. Not narrowed, no custom A-Frames. Stock Nova 14" wheels. Motor mount stands repositioned for motor placement. Long water pump and a stock re cored rad. Never a heating problem.
The Wizzard

 

P.S. What you see for Brake parts is from Master Power in Mooresville N.C. There kit was Total Crap and there Tec guys were useless. Non of it except the pedal itself is in the car anymore. It now has a 70 Nova drum/disc stock master and will stop on a Dime (like it should).
The Wizzard

 

Russ, I may have started the shit storm by asking why, and offer my apologies. I'll remove my comments in a little while so to clean up my contribution on another great Russ V thread!

Sent using the NEW Droid HAMB app from atop my toilet.

 

Daddio: NNNot to worry!!

Next fall when I go back to Arizona, I'll make an effort to check in going through St. George !!

Russ V.

 

REPORT #2

The car has been blocked up on our 4-post rack...(could'a also been blocked up off the floor) so that the frame is DEAD ON LEVEL, and then the axle centerline is also marked off a plumb bob hung from the center of the dust covers. We took plenty of time to ensure the rack was level (cross-ways and fore-aft) and that the shoebox frame is level (both rails, cross-ways and fore-aft). I will use cargo straps to positively pull the body down against the hoist so that it cannot shift during surgery.

I now have constant points to measure and then cut the shoebox frame at the most ideal location. This will be a point where the frames most closely match each other in width. Having the shoebox frame level will give a reference to setting the Nova clip...(making sure it is also level).

Pics show what we are discussing.

Next step is to find the ideal cut locations and gitter done!

Happy 4th, everyone....God Bless America !!

 

Damn. I was beginning to think I was the only one who used a plumb-bob doing a clip.

I also plumb off and mark the bumper bracket holes and radiator x-member holes and measure distance up from the floor and try to reuse the stock parts if possible.

I'll be watching this.

 

Great Tip..I'll plumb-bob the bracket holes and x-member before cutting.
Thanks.

Russ V.

 

REPORT #3

Measure, measure, mark, mark....and at some point, it is time to cut.

I settled on cutting the Nova clip 6" behind the "ideal joint location" which is 25" aft of the Nova axle centerline. The ideal joint location is that point where I found the 2 frames are most closely matched. The extra 6" will give me plenty of meat to sneak up on the ideal line. Also, I left an additional 4" of meat at the bottom of the Nova clip to use for clamping. (At least, this is the current plan.) I will publish a sketch of how I see the two frames....need to get where I can make a copy of the sketches.

Next, comes the cutting of the shoebox frame. And point of no return.

Stay tuned.

And, do not hesitate to ask questions or offer constructive criticism/comments!!!

 

REPORT #4 (Beyond the point of no return!!)

The Ford frame was cut, using a plasma cutter, which was a tough job because of massive amounts of imbetted dirt and crud on the inside of the frame...but I got'er done. The shoebox clip is amazingly HEAVY. The rest of the day was used to get the old clip loaded on a trailer and moved to greener pastures and then clean up the mess.

I also took the time to sketch some of the critical measurements and a rough sketch of how I cut the two clips. I'll add the sketches to this post when I can get them scanned.

At the last minute, I decided to cut large access holes in the shoebox floor pan over the frame stubs for easier access to clamping/welding. The pieces I took out will go right back in again after surgery.

Next step will be to get the Nova clip properly suspended to move into position and accurately clamp it into place.

 

Make sure when you tack the Nova sub on that the upper control arm angle is around 10 degrees with the Ford frame leveled for proper anti-dive caster.

Looking good.

 

For this information to be correct then he should be planning for the car to set level to the ground at finished and loaded ride angle. Is that correct?
The Wizzard

 

REPORT #5 Nova Clip Fitted to Shoebox Frame

The Nova clip was hung from chains in a near-level condition and a bunch of trial fittings was done....each time I nibbled at the fit-up to line up with the pre-marked shoebox wheelbase. I ended up cutting slots in the Nova frame ends which made the final fitting a bit like snapping legos together. I also used a pair of come-alongs to pull the Nova into the Shoebox. Shoebox frame and Nova clip are aligned at the bottom surfaces.

At the end of the day and the point where I was ready for adult beverages, the wheelbase marks had been reached, Nova clip level, and upper control arm angles verified. No welding yet, or closing of the inner flaps created by bending the inside portion of the shoebox out of the way. That comes next.

Long day for one guy....(this would have been a lot easier with some help), but satisfying.

And, I hope everyone following this project understands that I am in no way making a case for "this is how to do it".....only that this is how I did it. Constructive criticism is totally WELCOME!!

 

I've checked that angle of every one of over a dozen GM clips I've installed and have gotten readings from 8 all the way up to 11 degrees. I figured I'd just throw "around 10 degrees" out there since he may not have checked it and he's asked for any and all advice from whomever cared to offer it.

I've always preferred to take advantage of the money the factory spent on suspension geometry when I weld these subframes onto another car. Not sure if they ever considered finished and loaded ride angle. Next time I talk to them I'll ask.

Since I guess you got this thread covered I'll just shut up.

 

Wait !!! Here was my experience, I put a Nova clip under my 55 Chevy with the original intention of having a power disc brake and steering car. Soon after I installed it I realized that the Saginaw power steering gearbox was so long it seriously cut into my firewall. The whole gearbox, column mess was such that I chucked the power and went another way. Also, I had to narrow my stock A arms 1 " per side to get the tires under it. Because of the box location of the S-10, it is a little more forgiving between the box and firewall. The width is a little narrow but can be compensated with wheel off set...l.

 

Great thread. Virtually identical to how I put a GM stub on.
Subscribed

 

Wow. This is an amazing thread. First Russ V. asks a perfectly reasonable question and despite conflicting suggestions, he answers his own question. With detailed pictures and descriptions.

Not bad for a start.

Mr48Chev offered a detailed answer to the question in the very first response. It looked to someone who will never do the operation myself that his suggestions showed both experience and performance. My layman's look at the way Russ is doing the clip suggests this probably has much in common with Mr48Chev's advice.

Many of the posts were constructive, but the features I note above are what struck me.

cheers -- Gary

"It is better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb than on the middle of one you don't want to." -- Actress playing Jan's job in the British version of "The Office"

 

I should note here that the poll that Russ crafted for this thread cleverly includes mostly nothing about the technical question he asked. For the record, I voted "usefulness" but that was only because I couldn't vote for "all of the above".

Cheers - Gary

"Real joy comes not from ease or riches or from the praise of men, but from doing something worthwhile." -- 
Sir Wilfred Grenfell