Technical 1950 or 51 "sports car"...what engine?

And my guess is that it's heavy as hell, which is less than optimal for the application.

In a perfect world you'd figure out how to mill a couple inches off the deck height of the block (could it live with a ~6.5in rod length and shorter-skirt pistons?), figure out some kind of deck stuffer plate to weld in or press in to support the bores, and deal with the pushrod, etc holes...

...and cast a new AL head with late-model LS-motor ports.

 

Or weld two Honda blocks and heads together end to end.... Did I say that out loud???

I know the Buick 8 is "too big". The question is, WOULD someone have tried modifying it and using it?

If I build it with a stovebolt, it will be the later full pressure-oiled version for reliability. The Nash is still the front runner at this point...IF I can find one for less than a small fortune.

 

Somebody did that with two Alfa Romeo engines.

Or maybe he just used a coupler...

I read something about that in a magazine that featured a replica he built of a Alfa that would have had a straight 8.

There is the Alfa Romeo 2600 which would give the same hemi head DOHC all aluminum engine as the 2 litre , except its a 6 inline.
( if you wouldn't mind using a foreign engine )

 

People did various things back then!

Somewhere in an old Motor Trend I have pictures of a sports car built in 1950 or 51. It had bullet nose Studebaker body panels and a Studebaker straight eight. It was built by a Studebaker engineer using one of the Studebaker "specials" that competed at Indianapolis in the 30s (!?)

It was also equipped with Indy style Halibrand mag wheels, probably the first car to run mag wheels on the street.

As soon as the Studebaker V8 came out, they took out the straight eight and put in the new V8.

You should consider the Ford OHV 6. They created quite a stir in hot rod circles as the first OHV Ford but of course, were forgotten in 54 when the OHV V8 came out.

I still like the Stude V8 but I like the Dodge Red Ram even better.

.................Later........................

A web search turned up some info on the Studebaker Indy sports car. I got some of the details wrong, not surprising as I read the article in 1980!

Is this the sort of sports car you had in mind?

http://www.studebaker-info.org/uniq/uniq1111/50Indy/50indy.html

 

Wow, thanks for that! That's something I would usually remember as I grew up reading MT in that era. The general IDEA is the same...take then-current racing technology and mix it with available production parts.

I'm going for much more of a "Detroit Dream Car" look though. The 1952 Buick LeSabre concept is closer in spirit to what I'm looking to do.


What if some "other guys" working at Buick (or some other car company) were racers, saw the LeSabre concept being built and said "No, that's too big and heavy"...

 

Anybody seeing why the centrifugal supercharger is a key element in the design?

 

Cyclops???

 

Allard's used flatheads and later on caddys,olds and Buicks. HRP

 

While it really has little to do with my concept, this is where my head is at with this project: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBslrnXzF4

I love the moving camera shots on the backstretch!

All these different ideas were out there... We know now how it turned out, but I'm trying to capture the enthusiasm of the time.

 

I've had the same idea for a few years now, but to do it with an A coupe instead of doing a roadster. But since the engine options seemed more limited (and heavy), I've let the eligibility years for my engine slip to the later 50's. In either case for me anyway, using a period perfect engine won't be an absolute necessity. A more modern version of what would have been done in the early 50's would be ok with me, so I've also got Alfas, Quad-4s, BMW 4 or 6s, the OHC Pontiac, GMC stovebolts, SBC, and other tin valve cover OHV American engines like Fords (T-bird, especially) - anything that would look correct but might be lighter, more efficient and more powerful that the period perfect 1952 mill. Blowers and superchargers are fair game too. Not to forget, Austin Healey's just had Bedford truck engines (GMC design, I believe). To beat a period MG in that era all you needed was a lot of torque and a light car! Something that you could build that would be just that, AND have a very light motor would be even more ideal, eh? Gary

 

Too easy, Gary...

 

Anyone know where I can find a picture of the Hollywood Motors "Bu-Ford" Special that Max Balchowsky built before Old Yeller?

In the brief description I read of the car, it said the Buick 8 weighed 600lb. Yikes!

May have just crossed that idea off the list...

 

I don't see how... perhaps you were thinking of Cunningham's BuMerc? Or one of his other "Monster" creations? Gary

 

The original premise of my question was a "Ferrari fighter", using what was available when the first Ferraris appeared on the scene.

I'm thinking along the lines of a Nash-Healey, but one that was designed and built by a company that really wanted to "push the envelope". Now, what would the concept car have looked like for that project?

The Buick 8 is a sentimental choice, as I owned a 1950 Special years ago. Sticking to my original concept, the Buick engine just pushes the thing in the wrong direction.

I'm really leaning toward the Nash OHV 6 with a supercharger and mechanical fuel injection.

 

You don't have to make huge amounts of power. The photo is 1951 Ferrari 340 AM originally owned by Jim Kimberley. 4.1 liter, 225 HP when we had it on a dyno in the late 1970s. 5 speed, non-synchro gear box is probably harder to source than that amount of power. Perhaps the twelve port head Chevy or GMC shown in the injected track roadster in the above photo group would be the answer.

 

Terry, I'm pretty sure that for 1951, 225hp WAS "huge amounts of power"!

 

Just went through the "dream cars" thread on the HAMB, and saw a bunch of concepts that I'd never run across before...or maybe in a previous life.

I'd had the design pretty well fleshed out before, and I can't believe how many of the same cues I'm seeing in various dream cars from 1951-53. Pretty exciting!

 

How about a GMC 6? Either a 270 or 302, dry sump with a 4-71 on the side. Tilt the engine and set it back for better weight distribution.

 

The Buick V8 Max Balchowsky used weighed ONLY 640 lbs making it the lightest of the big OHV V8s. That is why he used them, because they were so small and light for their size.

Stude V8 weighs 625, Chev 283, 540.

Olds, Cadillac, Chrysler all weighed over 700 lbs and so did the Buick straight eight. Ford flathead, Plymouth flathead six, Chev 6 all weighed 600 - 650 lbs with less displacement and HP.

Before the 283 the only car engines that weighed less than 600 were the little Stude Champion 169, Rambler of similar size and the Willys 4 cylinder Jeep engine, maybe.

 

In 1950 my dad built a fiberglass-bodied roadster inspired by the success local hot rodders were enjoying on the So Cal road race circuits. Dan Gurney and Skip Hudson were both member's of my dad's CC, the "Detonators." He built the body initially in chicken wire and plaster, then took a female mold from it in which he laid up the body.

The chassis was '46 ford, with a LaSalle trans and a 303 inch Olds engine. The motor was bored and stroked (I think he said it was close to 330 inches when assembled). He ran four 97's on a log manifold he built from a kit. I've got some other photos, someday I'll get around to scanning 'em, but this is one of my faves:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

How about a Fageol 6 cylinder? They were offered as an option in 1950 Flxible coaches. Stock horsepower was 180. Single overhead cam, lots of aluminum castings. They were a beautiful thing.

 

http://www.fageol.com/F-Engines/FGE-p6.jpg

Seven main bearings and rocker-arm OHC, but 975lb which probably rules it out right there, and the exhaust manifolding looks to be internal to the head.

 

Uh...depends on how you define 'car engine', maybe you're referring to 'US-manufacturer car engines'.

Admittedly, the engines under 600lb tended to be mostly quite small in displacement.

 

Going back to your original post, I don't think you could compete with the Ferrarri of that era with an American production engine of the same era. But since we are turning the clock back, I'm sure Harry Miller would have been interested in your project.

 

In the early 1950s, it was possible to compete in short races using a "Special" based on American components against the imports. Chuck Manning and others did so, and the current vintage race results show the specials are still the cars to beat. It would be a different story on the endurance length races, say 12 hours or more, but "sprints" of an hour or so duration were the common races in the U.S.

Specials which were lighter than the imports, even if they gave up horsepower, were very competitive. Transmissions were an issue, and Manning did convert his '39 Ford to full synchro. Others used Jag transmission to get four gears and a few other multi-gear boxes from Europe were used. I remember someone ran a Pegaso five speed.

 

I don't think he would have been TOO interested since he died in 1943, but I get your point...LOL.

The "big" Offy was an idea early in the thought process, but they've always been ridiculously expensive and very low production (by corporate standards anyway).

I'm not trying to make some "weird" engine work...I'm going through a serious thought process about what was available BEFORE the SBC or Hemi became the standards. Also, I'm looking at the "future tech" aspect of it, rather than going with a hopped up flattie.

 

My take is that you are not looking for unobtanium you are wondering of something available that would have been used in a '50s sports car or maybe a '50s roadracer. Is that correct?

 

Art Ingles, an employee of Frank Kurtis, built a street special using a supercharged Chevy 6 in the early to mid-1950s. It was for sale a couple of years ago (incorrectly described as a Kurtis) at Fantasy Junction in Emeryville, CA. Maybe someone can dredge up the description.

That is an unusual but easily duplicated engine with more than enough power potential to be a competitive racer!

 

It was easy to find! Here is the link, about 2/3 of the way down to get to engine pictures.

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1172-Kurtis-500KK-Supercharged Inline 6-Cylinder