I've also said this before, but maybe it needs repeating. Selecting rods based solely on thier strength is great, when the main webs fail, and the crank falls out of the motor, you can use 'em again, when you build the new one. Assuming you can find all 8 of them... Bill Miller doesn't buy much ad space. They dont need to...
Got any photos of any EarlyHemi exhibiting this behavior? Naw, didn't think so. Iffy block integrity? Perhaps you'll suggest that to Don Gartlis and report back to us. Obviously 'we' have been doing it all wrong. Oh, send a warning to our own Kerry, as I'm sure he'd want to get ahead of the carnage that is waiting for him and his FED. So, you don't like Eagle/Scat...You fail to mention Saenz, Cunningham, Oliver and many more. Any reason that you exclude them in a discussion of steel rods? Oh, you never heard of them? Perhaps you should stick with shiverlays. ...geeesh... .
Ah, a great photo. Lets see, 1965, C&T Strokers...lets tip the can just a little bit so we can see if this new welded crank will work... It would be very informative if we only knew what was in the engine combo and, especially, how much boost he was making. As I recall, hydrazine was popular at about that time. http://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback-friday-the-story-of-the-leathal-fuel-called-hydrazine/ Yes this is also a Hemi engine, or what is left of it... Yes, it is possible to break anything, including an EarlyHemi. Most of us try to not waste money. .
Oh no, I have heard of them, in fact I have used some of them, where its appropriate. Its all good, not a problem, like I say, you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I have posts from Mr. Strode, and Mr. Waters that tell a different story, and a response from you regarding aluminum rods that clearly illustrates to me that you dont even grasp whats being discussed here, so I know who I'm gonna listen to. Yes, I know, you build lots of early hemis for street rodders, thats cool, its all good, you are highly respected, and I'm sure you have a long list of guys that see you as a guru. I dont share your opinion, end of story. Yes, that makes me an idiot. Oh yea, PS: I am actually planning on using Scat rods (I can see Gary now, "WTF, this guy REALLY IS out to lunch, they dont list any desoto rods in the catalog") in the desoto I'm building, but then, I dont expect it to exceed 450hp either.... Its all about "horses for courses".
Kinda hard to tell, but it looks like none of the rods broke, so its all good. Wonder if he found 'em all and re-used 'em...
I have built two Chryslers a 392 and a 331. When I built a 392 I was in a hurry and spent over 5K just learning what to do and getting a whole bunch of parts that I ended up selling off. Then I had to build the engine-read more $$$ than I should have spent. When I built my 331 which is currently Blown and about to be run in a '40 Willys Pick up I spent alot less and I am in no hurry (age and life does this). I spent $1,500 for a really cherry Marine engine '54 version short bell and all. I have another $1k in the blower stuff (I've been collecting 6-71 stuff for a long time) and about 2k in machine work and gaskets. I'm so cheap I didn't even buy adjustable rockers. Pushrods are a bitch to adjust but they are cheap. Isky Cam included in the 2k. Should easily put out 500HP and run for a very long time. This is just my experience, I shop around as suggested earlier. You can and will find a good deal. You don't have to mortgage your kids to build a Hemi. But- IF you can get 400 horses to hook up on the Shitty pavement we have these days you are doing really good. 1000 HP is pretty hard to run on the street. Alot of fun but waaaay more than you can use. So a radical street motor will be just that a tire fryin' Mo Fo. Anything over 300 becomes a challenge on regular asphalt even if you have a gentle and trained foot. What I am saying is even a mild built Chrysler looks the part has the Go and will run good for a long time. Don't get crazy unless you want to and can afford it. But once you do be ready to start selling off the rest of your stash to feed your Chrysler habit, I speak from experience. Nothing pulls, sounds, or looks like and early Hemi. All the best, Tim Here's some motivation-
Anyone looking for a 331 to build just needs to find later '54 331 or a '55 331. These are all short bell-housings.
Make sure you get those Scat rods checked for straightness (not twisted) & pin end inner diameter in spec (if full-floaters) IMO, Crower Sprotsmans are not that much more. I ordered a set for around $600. Also, I don't recommend new Chevy rods either (I send them back) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=765929 As far as 331 block strength, they are fairly beefy. my '55 331 block is heavier than my '71 455 Olds W-30 block. BTW, the webs in the 455 are the weak point as well, but the webs in my 331 are much thicker. Also, adding strenth to the bottom end of my 455 is $$$$, and you still have a cast iron crank (unlike my 331). Most serious EMC Olds guys start with a diesel or Nascar block - 900 HP & Ubber rare Batten heads That 354 EMC hemi is pretty amazing, considering most of the R&D is only by a few people, compared to the more common Fords & Chevy's http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en...l_engine_masters_challenge_wednesday_results/
Well, you better check the r/j while you are at it, they are usually right at the bottom of spec, and need to be honed, or the rod bearing clearance will be too tight. I love how Car Crap and Not Rod flog these rods on the premise that they are cheaper than doing machine work on your factory rods. They fail to mention that the scat crap usually needs the same machine work... I have a good reason for using a particular scat rod rather than the factory forgings in this case, it has to do with saving a crank...not gonna elaborate beyond that...
It seems like the Scat/Eagle rods are less expensive because they lack the last step of manf. Out of 8 rods, 7 needed to be re-bushed, & 1 needed to be straightened (it was twisted). I din't notice it until it was all together. The #3 cyl valve reliefs were at a slight angle - lol Back to the original question, the early hemis are not light duty. I like that TR waters halo girdle idea + 4 bolt caps. I will budget it in on my motor
I'll be getting a girdle for my desoto as well. Its surprising how long you can run with the caps dancing around, but eventually, the register will go away, and then you are headed for trouble. Kind of wondering if maybe some guys dont know how to read the signs. I talked to Marty by pm, and I'm convinced his friend was right on the money...
When you think about it, a crank really wants to pound it's way out of the bottom of the block. It's up to those little caps to redirect all that energy to the other side. It's amazing engines last as long as they do (not counting horizontally opposed motors)
I did see in a Hot Rod magazine that someone got 515 HP with a 331 using the new Hot Heads 4-bbl intake manifold.
As I alluded to earlier, I have seen evidence of cap walk in other engines I have built, but at much higher power levels. One way to mitigate it is by going to aluminum rods, and I have cured it this way in the past. The increased ductility of the aluminum rods allows then to absorb some of the violence, rather than transfer it directly into the crank and main caps, like the stiffer steel rods. Garlits was mentioned here, Garlits was not a Monkey See-Monkey do guy, hes a thinker, and if you examine the attached photo closely, all will become clear... Uploaded with ImageShack.us Stiffening everything up with a girdle and/or 4 bolt caps is another method, and the three can also be used together. Which method is "best" depends on budget, power level, and end usage.
73RR asked me to report back with what Garlits has to say. Well, further to this I just happened to be flipping through "The Complete Chrysler Hemi Engine Manual" tonight, and I ran across this quote from none other than Gary's apparent hero, Don Garlits... "Question: Do you recommend any special block preparation or components for a blown street engine? (increased clearances, O-ringing, 4-bolt mains, forged pistons, stronger rods, ect.) Garlits: All of the above, plus aluminum rods" End quote. Anybody want to check and confirm, its on page 107, not that I personally hold this book in any sort of high regard, but there it is. Maybe Garlits "should stick to shiverlays" Or maybe he DID mean Don Gartlis?
My 331", stock bore / stroke, no head work, mild cam, Hilborn converted to EFI, dynoed at: 330hp / 350tq.
Garlits has stated that in print, consistantly throughout his career, always used 392 heads. I will repeat myself here, I have a low opinion of the book, but not because I think people are mis-quoted. Its the piss-poor quality of the technical information, and whats missing, which is TONS, if you are going to call it "Complete" Its really more of a pretty picture book with some nice folksy stories, rather than offering any sort of real technical insight, but thats just my opinion. I got more out of reading the early seventies article in Car Craft about the Russo & Wear motor...
Yeah, I sent Ceridono an email some years ago that there was errors, he only seemed to accept the one that had been corrected by an insert slip previously.
I will sell you a 417 donovan for that 25K that will rock your world - Opps you did say streetable though. 73RR is close to the mark. Nothing wrong with a 331 .If you got it already and its in good shape go with it . If you are going from scratch - i can tell you the 392 ( if you have the base core that is good) will be cheaper and produce more ponys. However one of the best running Jr fuelers I ever saw was a little 301/ poly converted to hemi heads. We kinda did it on the cheap - it was all we had- if you follow . I have way way more than 25K in my 417 donovan. I believe the world of speed in Memphis used to have a sign that was over the counter that said it best. Speed cost money - How fast do you want to go? Mitch
Wow! I never realized till now the level to which we have been infiltrated by shiverlay guys. First Garlits, now Gene??!!...Et tu, Brute??!! OH GENE! PLEASE! SAY IT ISN'T SO!! "RACING THE EARLY HEMI BY GENE ADAMS PISTONS AND RODS For a racing engine, I prefer aluminum rods for strength and light weight. I have the piston manufacturer determine the ring pack they recommend for the application. Then I have them position the pin as close as possible to the oil ring, and let that determine the rod length. I do not consider rod length as important as having the pistons as light as possible."
They're fine.....don't get caught up in the festivities. You'll have much more fun building and driving your car than you will locking yourself in the basement and racking up 10,000 posts Scott Posted using two Dixie cups and a medium length piece of string.
Throw out the anchor before you get the fucking thread closed. Thanks. Posted using two Dixie cups and a medium length piece of string.
Thanks powershftr, this thread I scaring the poop outta me. Building my first hemi now, 54 331. I can't decide whether its a pile or not because of this thread. My hemi knowledge comes from this joint and my Early Hemi Guide. (Which I've very recently earned may be crap as well, I've sent it out to the garage until I figure out whether or not it can be trusted) Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Glad that I could help. What is the plan? They are perfectly fine for moderate street builds, but, NO boost! .
If you're building for a moderate hp level you are fine.Use good rod bolts,and a decent machine shop with a proven history of quality work,and you will be fine. My buddy has a 350ish hp 354 that he drives like he stole it,almost every single day when there isn't snow on the ground,and it has been running resized stock rods with ARP bolts for a few years now.Its as durable as a slab of granite. I'm using aftermarket rods in mine,but Im building a 420+ ci,supercharged combo with quite a bit of cam,so its gonna stress the bottom end a bit more than a naturally aspirated hot street motor would. Scott Posted using two Dixie cups and a medium length piece of string.
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