How important is Zinc AFTER break-in?

Hello!

I've read all about the importance of Zinc in the oil for break-in with a flat-tappet engine.

What about AFTER the engine is broken in? Do you have to continue to use Zinc? If not, do you run the risk of damaging the cam lobes over time?

Thanks...

Chris

 

remains to be seen! Supposedly other stuff has been substituted for the Zinc, but If you running a decent amount of spring why take the chance. Someone estimated that cam to lifter friction accounts for 20% of engine heat, no idea where/how they decided that, but it's a lot of heat. The change to roller cam in the '85 Mustang gave it 5 or 10 (probaly 5 but don't want to look it up) extra HP just by eliminating that friction.

 

A good additive like Lucas Oil Treatment will help keep those lifers and cams alive.

 

I don't think its worth taking a chance. But, I don't drive as far as I use to. I only change oil once a year in my hot rods. If I take a trip, might have to change one more time.

 

yes you still need zinc. all the oils you get at parts houses are the latest blends for newer cars. you need to use a good oil like Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs. these oils are loaded with zinc. they are costly ,but cheaper then engine rebuilds. do not use racing oils on the street. they are made to be changed after each race,not at 3000 mile intervals

 

I use Delo diesels oil and Lucas oil stabilizer with a wix filter. Delo has about 1400-1600 ppm of zinc. You need 1800ppm or greater to minimize wear. Most conventional oils have below this, they substitute the zinc and add detergents which strips oil from your moving parts. API controls the zinc levels, they think zinc kills the catalytic converters, wrong!

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I would continue to use it, at minimum use the STP oil treatment. It has zinc in it. IF you have higher spring pressure than stock, its a no brainer to use it.

 

You can certainly use racing oil. The only problem is finding racing oil that is in the 10-30, 10-40 or even 5-30 weights. It is made though.

 

Couple months ago i bought Zn phosphate additive at Autozone for about $5, forget the brandname, but was something I recognized at the time, why not?

 

From another view;

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink

 

Thanks HOOP 98, Great info.

 

I been using joe Gibbs since the guys at the machine shop broke it down to me. Little expensive but way cheaper than a rebuild like someone earlier said here.
It's been great. And I run my flat tappet motor real hard!


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That may be true. The whole problem may have been when some junk Chevy aftermarket cam cores (or junk lifters from China) got some publicity for some Chevys wiping cams on new builds (instead of the SM/SN oil). Some time back when reading one of the many Threads here on this subject I recalled that Shell Oil has an "Ask Shell" program. So I asked them what their recommendations for oil in older non roller engines was, and the answer was....use Shell diesel oil in older gas engines. That's straight from the oil company.

 

Well, I have been in the auto repair business since about 1967. I have owned my own 9 stall shop since 1979. We have done a lot of engine work in that amount of time. Yes, some have been the older motors. We use top quality name brand motor oils with no problem. I'd have to call BS on this.

 

A local car guy had his 454 rebuilt and broke in by a professional engine shop here in town. 3500 miles later he wipes a cam, hydraulic flat tappet COMP CAMS cam. Not junk, nor made in china. Engine was first started with breaking lube, but was not adding any zinc during oil changes. Why take the chance?

 

You need to run zinc-rich oils in old flat tappet engines . New oils are not like older oils , period , no BS , no myth , no snake oil . The oils were changed to help with emissions & cat converters , and old flat tappet motors be damned . All the cars I work on every day , at my 9-5 job have flat tappet engines and believe me , we know what we're talking about . Old engines NEED the zinc . If you don't believe that , don't use it - it's your engine . Brad Penn (which is what we use) and the others with ZDDP are not that much more money (considering the very distinct possibility of engine failure) , why take the chance ?? Seems stupid to me .

I'm not in this for the pissing contest , just passing along what I know , dealing with it day-in / day-out . Take it for what it's worth to ya .

 

Not getting into the zinc no zinc thing. Heard convincing arguments both ways. One thing i remember reading from Mobil 1 and royal purple (and also in an article on modern oil) is that they dont recommend using any additives. Reason being is that it offsets the additives already in the oil they made. So if u wanna use zinc buy oil high in zinc feom the get go. Also heard that some of that zddp in a bottle lies about how much zinc it adds. That is only hear say.


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Read here www.zddplus.com Support the Alliance, last one on the list of vendors.

 

I think it has a lot to do with how much valve spring pressure you have as well , if it's my choice I'd run oil with loads of zinc in it! Brad Penn , joe Gibbs are quality products and are produced for hot rod engines , if it's got flat tappet lifters in it -Use it u will save money in the long haul, it sure can't hurt ! Just my .02 cents !

 

I never understand running cheap oil or cheap filters in these vehicles we love. If you did have an engine break, wouldn't you like to know that you did everything right? I will do whatever I can to keep my flatty running strong and well, even if it cost a few more bucks.

 

On my last flat tappet build I used Gibbs Break-In oil plus 1 bottle of ZDDP additive at start up. Then on each subsequent oil change thereafter I've used Brad Penn plus 1/2 bottle of additive.

Now with almost 10,000 trouble free miles I'm hoping I didn't overdose the zinc.

 

Oil and Flat tappets... download the PDF and enjoy.

http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html

 

No mention of spring pressure.

 

YES!

Using a oil like Brad Penn is your Insurance Policy for our older engines.
Don't cheap out and use todays oils..... unless you want to keep rebuilding your engine over and over again.

 

read this stuff if you want some facts and not typical forum guy guesses;
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/tag/street-performance-oil/
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/learn-more/the-importance-of-zddp-video/

 

Be careful about adding too much ZDDP additive. Too much can be as detrimental as not enough. Valvoline VR 1 conventional and synthetic has 1400 PPM of Zinc and 1300 PPM of Phosphorous. I'd rather take my chances on having the correct amount of Zinc and Phosphorous in oil from a manufacturer then use an additional additive I dumped in there myself. After all manufacturers have chemists and engineers to figure this stuff out. While backyard mechanics are only making a wild ass guess as to the correct amount of ZDDP to add.
Also be careful thinking all Shell diesel oil contains a high amount of Zinc. They have also cut back on Zinc in their oil due to new diesel vehicles now have catalytic converters. Diesel oil with high Zinc must have a C-4 rating.
BTW, since this ZDDP issue came up I've been using Valvoline VR-1 in both new builds and older engines with no problems. Brad Penn and Gibbs oils have a substantial amount of ZDDP as well.

 

The high zinc diesel oil is CI, the low zinc is CJ. Have seen oil marked SM/CJ so..yup it has been reduced.

 

If I am correct, crane cams recommended using Delo or Rotello to break in their cams, hum? I know sport bike riders who use synthetic diesel oil in their high revving sport bike motors as well

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My information didn't come from back yard mechanics! It came from cam companies, and other creditable sources. I watched guy's build several engines with conventional oil only to see the cam and lifters wiped out before the first oil change if it made it that long? I also agree that during break in, I would use a oil that is already mixed with higher zinc than adding a zinc additive, like what has been suggested by another member,Brad Penn, etc.




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in a stock cam engine ( low lift short ramps ) I can possibly see little wear or damage , but in a performance flat tappet cam engine with higher face pressures on the cam and lifter lobe , zinc is a must . thats what the true purpose of zinc is in motor oil its a high pressure lubricant ,
also they saying a OHC engine was use well they use a slider shoe which has a even wide wear/pressure bearing surface , not a tappet . a tappet has 2 motions one being the up and down the other is spinning ( thats why a tappet surface when it fails has a cup/dish machined out of the tappet face ) , as to keep the wear even on the face and distribute the pressures and heat . so it has a 2 plane shearing effect on the metal and its concentrated on a very small area of the tappet face .
have been seeing many flat tappet cam failures on cars since the new oil's have shown up and these car the owners do not skimp on the filters and the oil brands and change time just used the lower zddp oils . and to use information from a company whos purpose is selling new vehicles vs keeping classics on the road is kind of useless ( show me a Gm vehicle that uses a OEm flat tappet cam made after 1996 the Big blocks were the last to go to rollers including the 4500 up commercial vehicle motors )
, as Gm doesn't manufactuer there aftermarket support parts , they buy them from aftermarket manufactuers and slaps their name on them .
Sae has several papers supporting the fact that low zddp levels do cause excellerated wear in flat tappet cams , but since the industry is moving towards lower friction roller type cams in the needs of fuel economy and better designs to make more power due to increased ramp speeds , that and the emmisions side prevails as the use of the flat tappet cam is almost non existant in the OEm world and in the future will be only used on classic or specialty engines , which will be a Specialty portion of the motor market .
they are trying to develop a non poisoning style of HP wear additive to replace it that doesn't have a heavy metal that poison the cat convertors . the days of the flat tappet cam are going like the days of updraft carbs ..