I'm with you there. Whenever I hear 350 chevy, I look for 22" wheels, an S10 frame, and monochromatic peach paint with streamlined mirrors, and a billet dash with digital gages. 265's, 283's and 327's rule. At least call your 350 a 283. Most people won't know the difference. Disclaimer: My 36 pickup has a 350 and billet dash: It was there when I bought it. Honest!
I agree ^^^^ the fun factor goes up with cubic inches. Considering your planned low rpm range, you should forget about a 283. Not that there's any issues with it - it just likes RPM.
Idk about that, once you see a 4 banger smoke a BBC you'll wonder if that's always true. Ill have to say no.
Not with that RPM range he's looking for. & I've seen lots of 4 cyl's smoke BBC's (the air cooled german type ) but they need to be wound up a little
Everything else being equal, the longer stroke engines will give you more torque, but the smaller displacements will be easier on fuel. 350 parts are more readily available and sometimes cheaper than the older engines, but I would be inclined to run the short block i had, get the compression about 9-9.5 with the piston/head combination, don't worry about big valves, run an "RV" type cam with short duration and about .400" lift, a two-barrel or small 4-barrel, Pertronix conversion in the stock non-HEI distributor, some ram horns, and some cherry bombs or Smithys. But what might make a real difference is a 700-R4, where you have a low first gear off the line, then an overdrive on the other end. Or if you're a 3-pedal guy, a T5 that came out of a V6 (wide ratio). Just one man's opinion....
That's a big issue. I don't like the look of centerbolt covers. I guess that means I will have to run early heads regardless. I see there are centerbolt adapters to run early valve covers -- never seen them though -- are they as fake as running Olds valve covers on a Chevy?
No. Unless you cant live with a 1/4 spacer. If you are after a TRUE period correct build,then don't worry about it. Go with the cube's......=More HP/Torque.... Never heard of any engine running "smoother" than one another in stock form. Cams and compression change things. Countless threads on dressing up engines.... Do what YOU like,and don't worry about "us" as what we think. You can dress it up nice. If someone has the balls to question you- tell them to pound salt.= I'm being PC correct here,but i'de use different terms. Isn't making yourself happy what matters?
Well, of course. And one of the things that makes me happy is a correct, mechanical, well-designed engineering-wise and aesthetically-appearing motor and engine bay. Without bling or phony add-ons. I also don't have much money for science experiments so figure it's a good idea to ask.
If it were me, I'd try looking at classifieds and check around local places to see what the other options will cost you. When I was shopping for a SBC, I had my mind set on a 283. I actually managed to find a PAIR of 283's on craigslist for $350. One was fully dressed, from pan to exhaust manifolds, carb, pulleys, etc. and had been pulled from a running plow truck. The other came out of an Impala, because the guy had a fresh big block sitting on a stand. The first one was pretty gummy inside, and probably needs a rebuild. But the second one that came from an Impala was immaculate. I dropped it in my car, and haven't done a thing to it- no funny noises, and it doesn't burn a bit of oil. You never know what kind of deals might be out there. You might come across a great running 283 for less then a set of decent heads, intake, etc. would cost for your 350.
If I were trying to build a sbc that got excellent gas mileage on crap octane and made decent torque, I'd build a high compression 307 with a very fast, wide lsa cam and a set of vortecs...
I run adapters on my centerbolt heads, to enable running repro Corvette covers. I painted the edges the same color as the heads. Nobody has noticed them in there.
That sounds very compelling. But then I would need to run a Vortec manifold, yes? Was hoping on a vintage cast iron manifold with an oil tube.....
I have successfully added an oil fill tube to an aluminum intake by using a toilet paper roll formed to the od of the bottom of the oil fill tube, cutting a hole in the intake with an appropriate hole saw, and forming a boss out of splash zone epoxy. I have splash zone kicking around because I use it on heads and manifold runners, you could probably successfully substitute JB weld. I'm impressed that you find this idea compelling, I am used to giving well thought out responses to these sort of questions, only to be greeted with total indifference. Give me till tomorrow afternoon, and I will respond with some more solid info, and some desktop dyno numbers for this combo. Just pulling numbers out of my ass, with the smallish bore, tight squish and active chamber shape of the vortec head, I'd think you could successfully target a cranking compression number close to 190psi on 91. I'd go with the 307 over a 305 based combo primarily because the reduced skirt loading should pay dividends in part throttle fuel economy.
I'm really looking forward to this one George! Hopefully we can extrapolate the gains vs cost of 305 vs vortec from the info. I have a set of fresh vortec heads sitting here. They have been modified to run a 0.550 lift cam. I got those vortec heads for free (long story) and spent 450.00 at the machine shop on the mods. Most stock vortec heads I see for sale are in the 200.00 range fresh off a running engine. The mods were a Valve job, guides cut, screw in studs, springs, seals, locks and a few other tricks. Then there's an intake manifold for the heads. Ready to go aftermarket vortecs are available and some are pretty cheap to buy, unsure if the quality follows the cheap price. In contrast my 305 HO heads have about 250.00 into them. Purchase plus machine shop - clean, pressure test, mag, valve job. To be fair I supplied the parts to them- springs, locks, retainers, seals. So it's more than 250 but those parts were included in the cam kit and gasket kit. Old style manifold fits these heads.
The 68 327 had the front oil fill tube but did not have the provision/area on the back of the block for the road draft tube.
The 350 4-bolt will build gobs of torque, and if you detail it to the period, I think you'll like what you've got. Between a 265, 283 and even small-journal 327, that motor was the best one for a coupe I put 100k miles on. Breathe on the pedal, it took off. Best of all the choices I ran.
I work with MarineTex a lot; sounds like the same deal for cheating an oil fill on the manifold. I am a big fan of 'active' chambers from experience with other engines. Would this idea work with a 283? (Yes, not period-correct heads, but you have me thinking). Can you also cheat a breather tube on the back of the block? A decent-sized pipe fitting would be enough for a PVC valve - the air inlet could be on the oil fill tube, so therefore could run period valve covers with no openings mounted on the centerbolt adapters. Sounds harder than rebuilding a 283, but efficiency is efficiency.....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=864034&highlight=283http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=848358&highlight=283
It doesn't really matter what you use. MOST people (the uninformed type) will assume it's a 350 anyway. Go with what you want. .bjb
Yes. I guess for me there are several aspects to this: 1 - Vintage appearance. No HEI, centerbolt covers, EFI and so on. 2 - The performance envelope of a 283 or a bit more. 3 - Efficient operation. 4 - Low overall cost. 5 - Creativity to help optimize the above variables. There are many ways to skin that cat, and that's why I am asking for suggestions.
283 with later unleaded gas friendly 305 small chamber heads (56-57cc , got the casting number somewhere ) Street total seal gapless rings , economy 3 keyway true-roller timing set, mr gasket dist advance recurve weights/spring set in points dist with 8-10 lead all in by 2500-3,000rpm , steel shim headgaskets (ex Gm ? ) , 327 '69's 210hp 2bbl steel inlet with the breather tube OR edelbroke 2p-2p 2bbl or 4bbl mileage alloy inlet (has provision for tube breather ) gets vacuum & bottom end torque way up there matching a torque cam specs 184'/194'/104'LCA powerband 800-3,000rpm best cruise rpm - 1200-2200 avail jegs or summit racing new cam OR 305 OEM 2bbl cam 178'/202' OR 305 4bbl Calf '80 Z28 Stock OEM GM - 189'/202'/109' LCA for a little higher rpm pep . Rams horn manifolds Eng clearances 2 thou across : bearings & Piston clearance , std volume mellings type pump. for 2bbl 327 manifold use '69's 283ci 4g carb or later 262ci 2bbl roch (you could even use '80's 262/267ci inlet as it has early 265/283ci size inlet tracts (bit no breater tube provision. above combo works on mileage 307 too (or smog/dished pistons '70's era 350ci) scour the wreckers yards for parts as the budget engs always run best, PS the '62 impala 283ci 2bbl that idled at 500rpm down to 400rpm had the 265/283ci 2bbl & '62 327ci truck 2bbl carb cam - specs : ( are you sitting down ? ) 172'/172' 240',107' LCA 332'/332' lift cam ) thats why you got 25mpg hyway in a shoebox 3 speed manual 265/283ci & bottom end torque stronger than a smog '70's 350ci how do i know ? been there & done that & its all in the correct combo parts matching & final tuning & remember chev with its various combos KNEW what they were doing ! The 104lca cams will put the powerband in the 1,000rpm-3,000rpm bracket with most bottom end torque so will anything with tighter lobe centers & shorter duration like oem std 2bbl 305 stick & the calif 305 4bbl z28 stick (109'lca) the stock pre emissions replacement cam 274 has wiser 112' lca & better suited to 305's & 350 stk rebuilds. goodluck & oh use those total seal street set gapless rings,the compression seal & extra torque your eng will love you for it, particularly reringers cheers.
When I started this thread I thought my home run could be a decent, rebuildable early- to mid-60s 283 or 327. With all this science flowing around, it sounds like I might have a chance to build something special that is also on the cheap. So keep it coming. Sidebar: The only SBC I have on hand is the 88 truck TBI motor I mentioned at the outset. Assuming I do not build off this, I will need a good starting point. What, at this point, would be good motors (displacement and years) to look for? 283s, 327s, 307s, 262s, ?????????
I'm assuming you are goning to be running a fairly tall rear gear, I'd grab that extra 1/4 of stroke. When I responded to your your thread, I was thinking 10/1 compression, and a Crane H-260-2, 260/272@.006, 204/216@ 050, .427/.454 on a 112 LSA. This is one of the HMV lobes, they are VERY fast off the base circle, the hyd. intensity number for the intake lobe is 56, this is an aggressive lobe, We actually used this cam in a 383 for my brothers hunting truck about 15 years ago, with 180cc Brodixes and a Q-jet, the gas mileage was really good for a big tank with a 3.73 rear gear. I have also used the HMV 278, and was VERY happy with it. These are really good lobes, and most guys just completely overlook them. Maybe Crane needs to follow CC's lead, and increase thier Petersen Publishing payola budget... I would run unported casting #906 or #062 Vortecs with the stock valve sizes, and a .060 45 deg seat, with a 30 deg. top cut, and a 60 above the seat, then a 75 hand-blended into the bowl. I WOULD lay back the spark plug boss where its adjacent to the intake valve, this will help swirl, which is something you really want to capitalize on on a deal like this. To get 10/1 is some work, the vortecs normally come out about 62 cc, and by the time you re-work the plug boss and polish the chambers, you will probably pick up a solid CC, so you will have to mill the heads a bit, you need 58 cc chambers so you will probably need a .030 cut, this is not a problem, I know guys who have angle milled Vortecs .100. The Sealed Power 307 pistons I looked at have a compression hieght of 1.655, I targeted a deck clearance of .015 down, so you will also need to deck the block around .030. Run this with a 4.1 x.015 steel shim head gasket, and you should be right at 10/1. yes, the total piston/head is only .030, I wouldn't lose any sleep about this in an engine with cast pistons(long skirt and tight P/W, so the piston isn't gonna rock any, even when cold) that will never go over 6500, as long as you take steps to make sure none of the holes are any closer than that. Mix and match the longer rods with the shorter journals, I do this on every engine I build anyway. For an intake and carb, I picked a Performer Vortec EPS intake (NOT RPM, tooo big for this combo) and a 1 9/16 throttle plate 4100 series Autolite. Theres nothing random about this carb choice, and I didnt pick it because I am trying to put the wind up all the edelbrock carb(not that I would EVER suggest using one of those f*cking things...) guys on the HAMB, I picked this carb because of the combination of small main venturis with annular discharge booster venturis. It will atomize the fuel really well, which is going to go a long ways toward helping the gas mileage with this combo. To realize the full benefits of this combo, you will need to tune the IFR's, PVCR's and mains with a wide range Lamba sensor. I ran all this through Performance Trends Engine Analyzer, honestly, I'm wondering if my computer has thrown a rod or something, the predicted performance of this combo is a little startling. I have actually dynoed engines that I designed in the software before, in my experience, its about 3% happy, but this thing still performs even better than I expected. I got a hp peak of 356HP at 5900 rpm. This is a pretty amazing number for a 206@ 050 intake lobe. The 112 LSA will help upper rpm cylinder filling, as well as contributing to really good idle vacuum numbers the software is predicting 19", which doesnt seem too far out of line, with a sharp tune, the 383 in my brothers truck idled at 21". Predicted Peak torque is 349@4400 rpm, and according to the computer, it first ticks over 300 ft lbs @ 2100 rpm. Dynamic compression is 8.12, I'd be comfortable with this on 91, and you might even be able to skate by on less, especially if you hook up some kind of cold air system. Realistically, its not going to make these numbers, but even if you add a 3% correction factor, this thing looks pretty good. It should make around 340 hp, and around 330 ft lbs peak torque, pretty good for an engine combo that is relatively low buck, and should knock down around 25 mpg at a 2000ish cruise rpm. One other thing to think about, and if I were building it, I'd be ALL OVER this, Total Seal has a line of ring sets called "Advantage", what these are is a ring set designed for NHRA Stock Elim. which uses a ring groove spacer to allow the use of modern .043 or .0325 ring sets in a 5/64 groove. they dont list the spacers on thier website in a 3.905 bore, but I know they make them, because I know someone whos running them in a Stock Elim 283. I checked, they also make a napier cut 2nd ring in a 3.905 bore, its p/n 209683. I'd run a modern barrel face .043 top and the napier second with a low tension oil ring. Dont get me wrong this aint cheap, it would probably run you about $300, but it would probably pick up about ten HP, AND it would help the fuel economy. How many short block mods can you think of that will help both hp and fuel economy? Theres a damn good reason why all the OEM's are running skinny rings now. I figured off the top of my head that this was a good combo, now its really got me thinking. I am gonna play around with another sym based on a 3.73 rear gear, with a bigger HMV 278, some head porting, a 650 dp with under-cut down-legs, and a Performer RPM. Throw that in a 3000lb S-10 with a 200r4, a 2800 rpm converter, some 245/50/16 Nitto triple nickles, and a set of Cal Tracks, and you should have a parts chaser that'll get 20+mpg, and run high 12s all afternoon, and no-one will suspect a thing, until its too late.
283 or 327 because this is a traditional hot rod forum, they are both cheap and plentiful, and the only cost over rebuilding a 350 is slightly more expensive bearings, and pistons. They will also out perform a 350 in top end due to the CI/valve ratios of the motors and increased redline(especially a 327). BTW headwise, camel humps all the way! My daily is getting a 327 in slightly mild-ed, L79 trim....
The absolute cheapest you'll find out there will be the 307. That is your winning ticket IF the bottom end is good. If it needs machine work and new pistons you'll be better off with something else. The thing is NOBODY in the general public likes them- the boat anchors anchor if you will. That's because out of GM in stock firm they suck horribly. The cams were junk, nylon timing gears, and heads with combustion chambers the size of basket balls. A complete dog. They have a 283 bore size and 327 stroke length. Smoky and Duntov stroked 283 and built the first 307 then ran 155 mph with it. Duntovs 30/30 cam was made for this engine.
I must be the only guy left that likes a 305. They're bullet proof, cheap, easy to hop up a little and when dressed up and detailed no one knows what size it is anyway. I'm gonna keep an eye out for a fresh one for another project of some kind.
Holy crap! The responses are adding facts to things I have wondered about for years as well as opening my eyes to things I never knew. A few questions embedded below: I am happy to trade some power and torque, especially as there seems to be plenty available, for less expensive components and/or machining. I am poor! So perhaps also configure a lowest-cost configuration, if possible.
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