Projects 1938 V8-60 Bantam Roadster Build Thread

I have posted about my '38 Bantam Roadster build before, when I asked for opinions about using running boards or not, but I never started a thread on the whole build. I am going to give it a shot in pieces. I tried to post a long description with a whole series of inserted photos like I see some guys do, and my browser promptly dumped it when I tried to post.

I have liked Bantam Roadsters since I was a kid. I never had the chance to own one until a friend of mine in Chicago pointed me to a pretty complete car for an affordable price in Utah. To make a long story short, I ended up buying that car, which was really quite complete and too good to rod since there are so few of them. I also bought another car (it must have been a car, it had a title!), or collection of parts, shortly afterward that was clearly not a restoration project and was a good start on a rod. Since I had two built V8-60s in the garage I parked the complete car for later work and started on a V8-60 Bantam build.

This is a conversion that was pretty common after WWII but every photo of a V8-60 Bantam that I have ever seen used a stretched or widened (or both) frame and a modified body. I decided to do a build that would have an unmodified frame and body, with only the firewall modified to allow the V8-60. No telling that it is a modified car from the outside unless you hear it, and nothing modified that was not bolted on so that it could actually go back to stock without major surgery. I decided that since most of the photos that I had seen of this conversion were pre-Korean War vintage that everything would be 1948 or earlier, and nothing would be done that could not have been done by a decent mechanic with access to a decent machine shop at that time.

So, part one: Here is the complete car that started the madness, delivered to our place in Florida in early Spring 2012. Then, here is the parts "car" delivered in June 2012. Clearly not a restoration project, the beginnings of the build.

 

Well, I obviously blew that. I will just attach the photos instead of trying to cleverly insert them. Should be obvious which is the complete car and which is the parts car.

 

REALLY looking forward to this build- Bantams are a favorite of mine!!!

 

The first thing that I had to do was to insure that my idea about not modifying the frame was going to be possible at all. I found a better frame (notice how bad the one that I got with the parts collection was) in Central Florida and traded some V8-60 parts for it. After I dragged it home I mounted the cowl and grille from the parts collection and set the V8-60 in with a Bantam transmission to see it it was going to work at all. It did! On to the next steps. First was to figure out how to mount the front of the V8-60 in the stock width frame. 60s have a 17" wide mount on the engine front cover, and I had about 13" of width to play width. Solution was a midget front mount carried on steel mounts to hold the engine just clear of the front of the frame.

 

I knew that I was going to have to strengthen the front radius rods since every non-restored Bantam that I have ever seen had twisted ones. A retired toolmaker friend of mine in Seattle came to the rescue with a set that is strong enough to take care of the weight and torque of a big block, let alone the 60. The rear end also had to be replaced since the Bantam ratio is 5.38 - 1. Not flathead-friendly. I located an Austin A40 3.90 rear end that is exactly the same width as the Bantam, and needed only to have the spring seats changed out and narrrowed. The period Austin rear end also gave me hydraulic brakes, and I would find out later that the Austin fronts could be modified to fit the Bantam as well.

 

Next step was to figure out the transmission. I had two excellent Bantam transmissions, and they would allow an open driveshaft to fit the Austin rear end. With an Austin A40 slip-jointed driveshaft in place the Bantam transmission fitted up perfectly. I made up a ring of 1/4" mild steel to mount the Bantam trans to the V8-60, and used a Jeep MB clutch disc with the Ford pressure plate. The Bantam throwout bearing and linkage gave plenty of travel to disengage and engage the clutch perfectly so that was an easy one. The transmission is the same one used in the Jeep MB, CJ-2 and CJ-3, so no problems with dealing with the massive V8-60 torque output.

 

With the drive train settled and mocked up I started to mock up the body. At that point it became obvious just how bad the cowl section that had come with the parts car really was. At about the same time I bought an Austin Bantam roadster from an auction in Oklahoma (are you noticing how handy all of these purchases are to someone in Florida?). When it was delivered it was missing most of the hard-to-find parts that make it an Austin, but it had a pretty decent cowl and an excellent rear body. The rear body went off to be part of my restoration project since it was much better than what I had, and the cowl became part of the V8-60 roadster. With the cowl decided upon, it let me start to see how the engine was going to fit and what I would have to do with the firewall. I found a radiator that would fit within the shell that had twice as many square inches of core as the stock Bantam radiator, and had it modified to have two inlets and two outlets.

 

Once I started to mock up the body I had to stop and install the body wood. Bantams are sheet metal panels over a wood frame, and there is no support without that wood. I was lucky that a guy in one of the Bantam clubs makes up the wood for the roadsters as a kit. It fits absolutely perfectly and made the installation almost easy. Much different than installing the body wood on MG TDs, like I did in my last build of a wood car. You can see some of the wood peeking out of the photo of the cowl from the inside in the cowl post above.

 

Now that the wood was installed so that the body had support and there was a decent cowl in place to hold the front of the body together and mount to the frame, I could start with mockups of the body to decide how the car was going to look. Since I messed up posting this thread twice already today this has taken forever. Mockup photos will follow, and many more after those.

 

First mockup was with the early Bantam rear fenders that would have been original to the car. They are the white fenders below. They were OK, but did not quite do it for me. The second mockup is with the later Bantam rear fenders that were part of the parts car buy. I don't like them very much at all. The third mockup is with early MG TD rear fenders that have the same radius and height as the Bantam fenders. That is the look. At the same time, the rear body painted in white was to see if that worked. Not. The car will probably be dark green with black side coves and hood sides. Having decided all of that, I started to work with that look and develop it. Next step was to build a windshield that fit the Austin stanchions and had the right height and look. My first effort was too high, the first windshield photo below. Then a 2" chop and I was really happy with the look. After that I mocked up a top to get a notion of how it would look with the top up. I decided on Austin buckets that were identical to the buckets that Bantam used in four-seaters in the late '30s instead of the bench seat and that really finished the mockup. Once the mockup was done, I blew up the car and started the real build. In future posts I will get into things like shocks, brakes, firewall construction, engine accessories, etc. I hope to be including a report on the first test run by the end of June or so.

 

Making progress on engine accessories. Finally have the right combination of heads, intake manifold and radiator mounting.

 

WOW- that is a tight fit... too bad there's no room for dual carbs

 

There's room for a dual carb manifold, but the carbs would poke up through the hood. Just did not look right.

 

Agreed- Art Deco cars do NOT need scoops or stacks

Hey, if that spare engine you have is a 3 main, PM ebtm3 (Herb Kephart)- he's looking for one!

 

Will there be front fenders fitted that match the contours/profiles of those MG rears? Or maybe the stock fronts could be opened up to match. I agree, those rears look great on there.

Steve

 

Sticking with the Bantam fronts. I am building running boards, and I think that they make the two work together. The outer arch of the Bantam fenders matches the TD's. It is the side profile and the long sweep that is missing. These are cardboard mockups, the running boards will have a rounded side profile.

 

Hmmm, I like what halibrandsteve is suggesting- might be worth chalking some lines on the front fenders just to see how they'd "look" if you thinned them out a bit...

OR, someone could do a little photoshopping

 

Greg, small world. Me and my buddies were at that Jack Hitt estate auction. I was very tempted to bid on the bantam, but like you said, there was alot missing. Glad you got it.

As a side note, I'd like to see what E&J headlights would look like on your car. $$$

 

Larry, I was surprised that no one in OK picked it up. I was lucky!

 

Maybe you could move the front fenders back a wee bit. Looks like they hang too far forward as compared to the front tire/wheel combo.

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

This is a great and appropriate project, and I second all of your self-imposed rules.

I saw a 60-powered Bantam a few years ago that was perfectly proportioned and detailed, but I can't remember where I saw it and I can't find pictures of it. Too bad, because it was just great.

I really like where you're going, and I will watch your project with great interest, but I don't think you yet have the right fender combination. You need to adjust either the front fenders to lighten them up (like the MG fenders) or add material to the MGs to mimic the front wheel wells.

Anyway, great project.

 

Thanks to everyone who commented on fenders. I had been thinking that some kind of skirt on the rear might provide the balance by giving the rear fenders a little more rounded profile, to match the very Ford-ish fronts. I had a '38 Ford coupe, and the front/rear fender proportions were similar but looked a lot better with skirts. I was looking for a picture, and Ryan posted one today that shows them well. I will mock up something like these and see if that does the trick. What do you think?

 

Looking great Greg, good progress. Did you get the Red's headers to work? I can't tell by the photo.

Paul

 

Paul, I had to make a very minor mod to the driver's side header in order to clear the steering box, but otherwise they fit like they were made for the application. Pictures below.

On the fender theme again, imagine the skirt painted onto the Bantam rear having the rounded profile of the Ford fender. Pictures below. Opinions?

 

If you are going to skirts you might want to look at a 1937 Alfa Romeo 8C- the skirts are louvered with long horizontal louvres, not sure how that would look on such a short car though.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=1937....wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAlfa_Romeo_8C;485;322
Chris

 

Fender commentators, thanks again for your ideas. The drawing that I posted above did not get the lines of the fender skirt right. This is what the car looks like with high-quality cardboard fender skirts and same quality cardboard running boards mounted in place. I believe that this gets the front/rear fender proportions right. The skirt is taped inside the fender, final metal version will be flush with the outside of the fender. What do you think? Greg

 

It does, but the fenders themselves will still be "fat" vs "skinny"...

Not trying to be rude, but imagine a pair of 33 Ford rear fenders matched with a pair of 35 fronts on a car- you'd probably be quick to think "ridiculous", even though they are stylish and good-looking on their own.

try drawing an "opening" on your pattern that more closely matches your front fender and see if you don't like it better.

 

Nice project! There was one here in Connecticut that was built in the early 1950's I think by a V8-60 Midget owner/racer. Lots od rrace car stuff got used in the build. The late Red McCormick had it when I last saw it together. Bob

 

Mac, not rude at all. I was thinking something like that, on the lines of what Jaguar did with the old Mk II sedan. Will play around with it. Thanks for your comment.

 

What a fantastic project - I look forward to seeing this come together - great to see some wooden framing retained.