Hot Rods Chopology-identifying an old Hot Rod '32 3 Window

Guys,

I have spent 7 years looking for the idenity of the '32 3 window body I bought. The car was purchased out of Ramona, California collection near San Diego and it had a unique reverse lead chop, lead filled cowl vent and leaded in model rear bobbed fenders all done in '40-'50s, no bondo used.

I have poured over thousands of old black and white photos trying to find a picture on another '32 3W with a reverse chop. The only one I was able to find was this picture of the #36 car from Don Montgomery's " Hot Rods as they were book" on page 76. The picture was taken by Bernie Couch the famous dry lakes racer and Strokers club member.

I was able to track Bernie down and he is alive and well living in Orange County at 90 years young and still owns his '32 roadster he has had since '47.

Well I spoke with Bernie about this picture he took and got some details on the car.

It was June 1941 ( pre-war) at a Russetta or Western timing meeting at El Mirage ( only ones that allowed coupes to compete prior to '47) and this car was very well built coupe, reverse chop, black laquer paint, 16" Kelsey wires, '39 Banjo wheel, filled cowl vent, bobbed rear stock fenders, no running boards, but front fenders, with a BELLY PAN installed covereing the frame rails, screen front hood sides. Bernie thought he remembered the car was owned by a LA dentist which explains the high level of detail and deep black laquer paint.

Now, this car and my body share these similarities:

1. same unique lead Reverse Chop as the #36 car, with three door hinges, sometimes the top or middle hinge was eliminated during the chop process.

2. Both cars came from Southern California area.

3. My car has a filled cowl vent (leaded in) amd the #36 car has filled cowl vent.

4. My car was a factory trunk car and this #36 car is factory trunk car

5. My car has the p***enger side key lock hole, so does the #36 car

6. My car has model A bobbed rear fenders which could have been added at later date when California fender laws cam into affect in 1951. It also has a raked channel 2" in the front and 1" in the back done at a later time so it gives the illusion that the chop is a little different.

So I have attached a current p***enger side view of my car taken at a similar angle as the #36 coupe from Elmirage in 1941 in hopes to get a definate match of the unique reverse chop properties.

If I can get a match that will change the direction and build of my coupe because if they are the same car and has El Mirage racing history then the style should be late '40s with a flathead.

Can anybody take the two pictures and lay one over the other to see if the chop is the same?

Tex

****BUILD PICTURES START ON PAGE TWO*****

 

I actually like the look of the #36 car more than the '60's era car you have set up now. I say go for it, whether it's the same car or not. Build an exact restoration/recreation.

 

I don't know a darn thing about it but the bobbed and molded rear fenders, unique top cop, and light channel job looks killer just the way it is. Got any pics from the rear?

 

Tex: I hope you can get definitive information on your coupe. I tried to get info on my cabriolet before building the body. It came from L.A. by way of San Diego. It was in a collection in L.A. at one time but owner was forced to sell.....legal problems is what I hear. It was sectioned and shortened and done in lead and done very well. I guess Rick Hovings site deals with mainly customs......have you tried Him? He is on the hamb isn't he? Wish you the best!!! Tim

 

Yeah, so do I... bet most everyone'll think so.

But I see lots of fresh floor-and-sub frame work to channel the current one...UN-channeling could be more work than say, ... a 3-window Graffitti clone? Just kidding...

That 'reverse chop' rhetoric: When I chopped my '36 three window in '54, I talked to Barris (at San Jose car show) Gaylords, and Dean Jeffries, all of them said "When chopping a top, take more out of the back..."
***uming this was a rule for 'Customs', I obeyed. (my '36 was planned to be a taildragger)
But some of the San Jose customizers said they'd chopped '32s and '34s with that same rule. (Joe Wilhelm told me that in an hour long conversation, complete with draftings)
The Johnson bros. agreed, MOST tops they'd chopped had 1" more taken out of the back.

Just an observation...

 

Not that I'm a Deuce expert, but my eyeball says they are the same car. The corners of the right door window, the angle of the front post and the area above the windshield look to be spot-on shape and dimension wise. If they are not the same car I would be very surprised.

I, too, would like to see your car "restored" to the same configuration as the mystery #36 car from Montgomery's book, even if it's not the same car. It's a beautiful example of an unusual chop technique in any case.

 

Hey Doug, the #36 car photo does not show up at my end. Totally, want people to see what your talking about. I think it's the same car, and would build it back into #36, the front fenders are my FAVORITE!

 

Fixed it!! I had scanned it as an PDF instead of a JPG.

 

Your door almost matches perfectly. There are some slight differences due to slightly different angles taken.

 

WOW!!! That is an almost perfect match......what is the likely hood??

 

Damn, could be...

 

I would say its the same coupe

 

That 36 car looks like a heavier chop to my eye.. Maybe an inch or so.. More pics of both would help..

 

HAMB CSI, thanks for the overlay LOWCAB. I'd go for a full restoration of the #36 if it was my car. Coupe with Pre WWII Dry Lake history, it needs to be saved for what is is. Bob

 

The door gaps need to be studied closer.


look at the poor fit on the rear upper corner of the door on the primer car. It does not appear to be an adjustment error. It looks like a minor mistake in fitting/cutting/welding, during the chop.

Now, expand the pic of the black car. The upper corner door gaps appear as good as a 2014 car.

I would try to adjust the door on the primer car to see if it can get as good as the old pic.

 

In comparing your photo and the photo from Don Montgomery's book which is clearer in the book, the chops look practically the same to me. It is going to be hard to measure exactly using the 2 photos because they will never be exactly the same angle or taken the same distance from the car. The location of the top hinge may be the key. Just my 2 cts.

Is their any original paint in the door jambs? You may be able to color sand and see if the car was ever black or not.

 

Look what I found on page 4561 of the Vintage shots from days gone by thread. Could this be the same car as well? The reverse chop caught my eye but more talented eyes than mine will have to make the call.


Well, apparently there are some tech problems at the moment and I can't upload the dang pic that I saved from that page. it is post number 91214.

Sorry couldn't post the pic.

 

another try

 

Something like this if you are very lucky.

 

Definitely not the same car, the upper door hinge is in a different location.

 

I can't tell if #36 is channelled or not. But since the fenders are cut, I'd think leaving your body in it's semi-channelled state would still work fine in the recreation of Ol' #36.

Restoring the wheelwell's bead will be enough work to keep you busy.

 

Yes, there is a big patch of black laquer on the drivers side quarter panel as well inside the door jambs and inner door structures showing this car was definately black at one time.

I have never even seen another '32 3w with a reverse chop in all the thousands of black and white pictures out there.

So to say the chop is unique would be an understatement.

I think we have a match.

 

Maybe.

I matched up the belt line, rear door line, and upper hinge. But the angle of the photo is pretty different, so it's hard to say if they match well or not.

To really identify it as "the" same car, I would like to see a photo of your car taken from the same angle and distance away.

 

Gotgas: That's amazing!!! I think it's a match also. I would proceed with the mind set that it is.....for sure. Tim

 

I've seen images of a few cars like this, but IMHO the reverse chop was done mostly for aero improvements while racing, rather than just looks. One theory being that it helps get the back of the roof down out of the wind, which happens when the ch***is is raked severely to get the nose down, but causes the rear end to stick up a tad bit higher in the air. Regardless, you don't see it that often and your car sure looks the part of a lakes racer. Good luck in your research. Gary

Later... I found one more image of a similar chop for you just to eyeball. I thought I had some T coupe pix of the same thing, but couldn't find them. Just FYI. Gary

 

I am fairly certain that it is the same car and it we could get just the perfct angle I think it would be an exact match.

Now that changes the current build direction dramatically and I don't think the '60 build track I am on would do the car justice, SO...My plan is to remove the leaded and bobbed rear model a fenders that were added at a later point and return it to its '40s configuration.

The ch***is is set up for a flathead already ( SBC with hurst mont) and I have a fresh 276ci flathead with early Wieand heads and 2x2 intake, and (4) "16 inch steelies, '40 banjo rear end, '39 column and wheel, F1 box.......So I could create a slightly latter 1940's fenderless version the June 1941 picture above, say what is might have looked in '47 or '48??

Anbody wana take a stab at photo shopping it?

 

This is a view of the same picture enlarged from Hot Rods As They Were, Don Montgomery

This shows the start of the top hinge. The bottom of the top hinge is shadowed. The hinge looks like it is centered in the opening of the door in the same way that yours is.

 

I am guessing that #36 does not have a dropped axle since this is 1941. This contributes to a more level appearance of the car overall. Great looking car.

 

If that's not the same car, the same guy chopped 2

 

I spoke with Bernie Couch who the took picture of #36 coupe in June of '41 he looked at both pictures and the other similarities and he is of the opinion they are one in the same car. He remembered the car belonged to a Dentist from LA.

Now if we could find out who drove the #36 car at that Russetta meet in June 1941??