Vintage Engine Masters Challenge?

Below is a quote from the E-475 thread, but I thought it deserved consideration outside of that context. Thank you, Henry Floored!

Anybody else think this is a good idea? Personally, I'd like to see the SBC perhaps outlawed entirely, or at least limited to '55-'59 castings. Actually, come to think of it, it's a "fifties-or-earlier" contest, so that shouldn't even be a question, should it? Think of the innovative engines and technology that would come from this. Heck, even the stick-in-the-mud Street Rodders would probably get a kick out of this article series. After all, they followed Doc Fromhammer's retro buildups in Street Rodder didn't they?

How about it, magazine guys? I don't normally suggest articles, but I think this would be great. It might even make a good TV show!

 

I call 322 Nailhead!
I'd definately buy that book at the book store, or the magazine off the rack.
-Brad

 

I'm in for the Flathead Hudson 6. Now I gotta find one...

Jay

 

I think Marmon had a 16 cylinder.

 

315 HP- 283" fuel injection[W 4 spd]- would embar*** a lot of those bigger cubic inch boat anchors......

 

I like the idea IF its done with parts anyone can afford same with machine work nothing outrageous !like donovan B blocks or 1 off connecting rods.Didn't Hot Rod redo a plymouth that ran on the beach at daytona and gain something like 80 horsepower over the origional just because of the advances in machining ?how about several builders doing the same engine then comparing the results each builder gets say a 50 olds mill to build their way then dyno the results or put each in the same rail with a pro driver for comparison.just my crazy idea

 

Sounds like a hell of a good idea to me. It would bring out those engines that is not the norm.

Dawg

 

I think this is a great idea, so long as it worked within a set of rules. Maybe a HP/cubic inch rule might be necessay just to keep it fair. Going for just top HP numbers would put the 322 Buick, 312 Ford, 324 Olds and 283 Chev at a disadvantage to the 410 Merc etc... Rules I'd propose are NA, stock crank, rods and pistons, and factory heads. However, porting, machine work, compression, single or multiple carbs, mechanical injection, and cam can all be unlimited. That way we see who can extract the most power out of factory rotating ***emblies and keeps it fair against SBCs. It would be interesting.

As for my bet...283 Chevs and 350 Mopars.

 

what a cool idea!!! vintage dyno shootouts.
302 GMC vs. 303 Olds,
322 nailhead vs. 324 Rocket,
260 Plymouth vs. 260 Ford
292 Ford vs. 291 Desoto

just a few cubic inch related comparos.

 

HP/Cubic inch would not work, the idea is to get the most horsepower. You would have to limit the year or manufacture, engine configuration(i.e. l6, v6, v8) and the displacement to make it work.

I say put a 300 c.i. limit on displacement and pre '57 casting date and go from there.

I have a 303 Rocket and a 265 Chev waiting, let me know.

 

I'd be up for pre-57 or pre-60.

Block and head castings must be legit.

Crank I could go either way. Strokers were readily available. Also, why nitpick about the rods as long as they are stock length?

Hate to put everyone on the trailer before the contest starts, but I hope everyone realizes that someone might show up with a Pontiac?

 

I like the idea of a year of manufacture cut off date, but the idea of a displacement limit makes no sense. What's more tradaditional than cramming the biggest motor you can get your hands on into your rod?

Cut off date of '57: 283 Chevs vs 312 Fords, 371 Olds (the forgotten Olds motor in my eyes) vs 365 Caddy, Let's not forget the big Y block 368 Lincoln vs the 392 Hemi...whoa would that be bad***.

Push the cut off to '59: 348 Chevy, 410 Merc, 352 Ford, 413 Wedge, brute 430 Linc all enter the fray.

The reason I'd suggest the HP/CI rule is because theres nothing impressive about a 392 Hemi beating the balls off of a 283 Chevy in a dyno contest, it's apples and oranges. The 430 Lincoln made 375 hp in factory trim, but if a 292 Ford could do that, it'd be ******** and if the displacement playing field was more level, might surp*** the bigger motor. The current Engine masters are pretty even (460 Ford, 454 Chevy, 440 Mopar), 20 cubes is acceptable, 138 is not. Maybe a points system?

 

PRE 1960. SBCs ok but limits to 283. Like to see 59 389 and early Ponchos. Unlimited mods current with time limit. Porting, carbs/cam.

-283s
-322 Buicks
-303 Olds 324/397s
-Flatties
-W block Chevys/GMCs 348s/409s....

BE A *****IN BUILD!!! NEED IT!!! SCREW COMMERCAILZED MAGS!!! R&C/STREET RODDER

 

Are we talking blown or unblown? Gas, alky, fuel? Old school with vintage intake castings, & carbs, or EFI and intercooled turbos?

Either way, a 392 Chrysler has to be a pretty heavy hitter. I'd expect them to out-horse any 413 that has pre-60 head castings on it unless those heads had some REAL magic done to 'em.

I'd be curious to see how well the big MoFoCo 430 would turn on, and the 390 Cad. I don't know half as much about these mills as I'd like to.

From my point of view, I'd suggest keeping stock rods, since replacements weren't so common then as now. Or, at least require replacement rods to be pre '60. I think the reciprocating ***embly limitations of the original motor should remain a consideration in this. And, I'd lobby for carbs & gas (or maybe methonol) with no modern style intakes (i.e. sheetmetal tunnel rams) or modern castings. Just old style stuff, or hand made (U-fab knockoffs, etc.) Or injectors... they were sure as hell around!

 

I'd like to see a bunch of builders do the same engine so your comparing apples to apples as they say .I'd want to see them work with parts anybody can get.thats why i brought up the specialty block thing.from your posts I know that there are saltflat racers etc. here but I would like to see inginuity over cubic dollars chevy forged rods in say an olds block fine !one off custom made ***anium rods at unobtanium prices noway !I've got an article here for example from 1950 on building a hot B motor they used welded pontiac rods that then were easily obtainable while its nice to look at 300,000$ b engines built without a single ford part in them I'd prefer to see a 5000$ b engine done with a combination of old and new tech.I'd like to see "use crower cam # 17365 "rather than "cam custom ground specs secret" like was in the origional enginemasters challange .

 

If '57 was the cut off year I'd take the 364" Nailhead.... So now someone needs to get it going.... I have one in the shop I have to build anyway...

 

my employer participates in those. maybe I ought to mention it and get it going. is it just us or would it "sell"? that's all they really care about with these contests.

 

I've got a 58 nailhead to build. How would it work - would the entry be required to have the motor run on an engine dyno?

I'd say it would have to be a normally aspirated deal, but I wouldn't limit anything on the internals, such as forged or cast, stroked or not, that would be where the ceativity comes in.

 

I know just for the Buicks, the cut-offs are as follows: '53-'56, 322; '57-up, 364, '59, 401.

Someone mentioned stock pistons? No way are 50 year old pistons going to be worth a damn. Egge sells pistons, but... I'd see nothing wrong with having forged pistons made. I'm possibly going to do that with my 322. It isn't cheap, but it's not horribly expensive either. Probably about double what new cast pistons would cost, but that's one place I wouldn't mind speding the money.
At the very least, I'll bring the CR up to 10.0:1 by cutting block/heads if I have to.

Rods? If you can find a new, high-quality rod that fits, then absolutely. Here again, very often the cost of reconditioning old rods is not that much less than buying good new ones. Plus, this might allow you to run a longer rod, or offset grind the crank.
There's a gray area then: if I'm getting longer rods, offset grinding the crank and forged pistons...
Thing is, the rod journals on a 322 Buick are close to what a BBC rod journal is. I see no reason that can't be cut down, and a different rod installed.

Same with cams. COMP regrinds cams. I'd send the stick to them and have them cut it with new cam profiles. With the new profiles they've developed, a cam with the same lift and duration as a vintage cam will make better power simply by the way it controls the valves.

For me personally, rather than make it be a shoot-out between different engines (there's a very good reason Hemi and SBC rules the strips), I'd like to see a book (or one-shot magazine) dedicated to trying to get very decent power out of vintage engines. There would of course have to be some basic ground rules, because while the **** Landy-built Flat Fire land speed flathead is very cool, there is NO application to the basic rodder.

I'd say limit it to stock bore/stroke (plus .060 to clean up a rough block). Can stroke the engine if it can be done with relatively easily obtained parts. FOR INSTANCE, if you can find a set of existing rods and offset grind the original crank, then go for it. If a stroker crank drops in with relatively few challenges, that'd be cool (for instance, the 383 Chevy). Buying a billet stroker crank wouldn't fit the spirit of the builds.

Heads: factory castings, unless something aftermarket is readily available. IE: flat heads.

A lot of guys like U-fab intakes...they look nostalgic, so why not. I'd say no custom-built sheetmetal intakes.
Not that many guys are going to build a blown vintage engine. For instance, if I happen to get lucky and score one of the very very rare 322 4:71 blower intakes, is it fair to build a magazine engine with that, when Offy multi carbs are still being made, and good Weiands can still be found on Ebay for reasonable money?

My personal feeling is that a book or mag showing how to reasonable build vintage engines would be a tool to get other guys to realize that it can be done, fairly affordably, and make reasonable power. That's what the excitement of the thing would be. Generating buzz about the fact that a 303 Olds or 364 Nailhead can make 400hp without getting stupid.

And I'd completely leave the small block Chevy out of it. I once read that the only way to write about a SBC article and make it different is to build the engine under water.
And I've got a '57 283 with date-code '57 Fuelie heads and 2x4 intake...Yeah, I think it'd be great to slip a roller cam and rockers in it, lighten the crank, pistons, etc. and see what it would make, but not in book on vintage engines. I can read about small block Chevy engines in every other magazine on the rack, every single month, built a dozen different ways.

-Brad

just re-read it: maybe here's what a good set of ground rules would be: factory crank, factory block, factory heads (unless aftermarket heads are readily available--MUST be full water jackets).
Cast intake (that includes aluminum), or U-fab log intake.
Factory water pump
Factory oil system (spin-on filter adapters allowed--no dry sumps)
Factory distributor, or readily available aftermarket (if MSD makes one, go for it. Pertronix is fine too. No hard-to-find Magnetos, etc.)

I think it'd have to be something a guy could duplicate, with a reasonable amount of difficulty thrown in. He'll have to hunt for an intake, but not an ignition. He'll have to hunt for a flywheel, so if the hunt yeilds a Sheifer, then cool.

Or, limit it to "nothing exotic."

 

I'm gonna vote for the cut-off year to be 1960....you know where I'm going with this....I wanna see a Cadillac 390 beat the **** out of a 392 Hemi....

 

How about we keep it simple and say nothing 1960 or later.

No 'new' cranks or rods.

No late intakes. Mods ok.

All the tech and tools available back then. All the tricks that might have been done.

That means block filling is ok, radical porting ok, offset grinding cranks ok.

45 year old M/T aluminum rods, ok!

Run what'cha bring.

No EFI, even if it does look like a set of 97's!

No 9" converters.

No hydraulic rollers.

Etc.

A judge can determine what is and is not legit for the period. It won't be hard.

Will the playing ground be unfair? Hell yes! The Chevies will kick *** with 10K rpm 283's, the hemi cars will make big power, and my Pontiac will kick all your ***es

 

I'd fashion the rules to showcase the potential of each engine design, at least for the first go 'round. Surely the Hemis, Olds, and Chevys would benefit from the availability of some highly developed speed equipment even the `50's vintage stuff. To avoid unfair advantages I'd first mandate stock heads, block, crank, rods and rocker arms. I'd make mandatory wet sump oiling, stock cam drive and a working stock water pump. I'd put emphasis on the paticipants making the factory parts work. I'd limit it to a single four barrel carb, flat tappet cam and no welding in the heads. I think to make it fair all replacement pistons would be cast and come from a single supplier like Egge. What I envision for round one would be what is the baddest hot rod engine that a `50's youth could have pulled from a boneyard and bolted in his engine bay. I'd score the contest like this; 20% for highest average hp, 20% for highest average torque, 60% for hp/cu. in. This would extremely interesting to see.

 

Lets say all speed parts had to be available no later than the cut off date for the motor.

We can get the info from the old parts catalogs from that time.

 

To equalize the playing field, and allow a much broader range of engines, why not just compete for most HP per cubic inch? That way strokers, and big inch factory motors aren't at a clear advantage.

 

i think rather than limiting it to what they did back when, maybe limit the overall budget. limit it to something reasonable within a homebuilder's budget. it would be interesting to see what ingenious and possibly, new solutions each can come up with to push the limits of the blocks...

 

Sounds interesting - I've got a '56 265 SBC that needs to be built for a very basic '29 roadster project, circa 1959 or so. My buddy keeps telling me it HAS to have three twos and Corvette script valve covers. I keep telling him I'm more interested in what I'm going to have to modify to keep my internals properly oiled, and how much cam I can stuff in that solid-lifter motor without losing ALL the bottom end.

I REFUSE to use ram's horns manifolds - gotta have some kind of headers over the framerails.

Are there any intake manifolds still made for that SBC that allow for the early-style oil filler?

I'll follow along with interest (subscribes to thread).

 

That's what I'm talkin' about!

It's 1960, or 1957, how fast can you go with what is available in the era?

 

Taking the totally vintage, nothing new approach has already been done. Back when these engines were new! If you want to see what these engines would do at the time, start searching for vintage magazine articles on building them; Hot Rod, Car Craft, Hop Up, etc. There was no shortage of those stories. Start really searching, and I'm positive you could have several magazines with stories, in a few months, for a lot less than what it will cost to build an engine. I've got a pair of Petersen one-shots: one on Buick Nailheads, one on 348/409. They're cool to look at, but I really don't care about making power like they did then.

Hell, at that point, just compile all the magazine stories into a HAMB-only "magazine" and sell copies.

I'd be a lot more interested in using today's techniques and technology to make vintage engines run stronger, last longer, and destroy the myth that you have to run a small block Chevy or other new wedge head design to have a reliable, high performance engine. THAT'S what would generate enough interest for a publisher to take on this challenge.

As an example, which engine do you want to hear about:
322 Nailhead. stock-type cast pistons (that weigh a ton), 9.0:1 CR, steel 1.5 rockers, Weiand 2x4 intake, dual point conversion distributor. Re-conditioned rods, ported heads with stock or slightly oversized valves. Reground cam using old-style lobe profiles, probably from a company that's been using the same profiles since the '60s.

OR
322 Nailhead. Forged pistons that are lighter. 10:1 CR. Offset ground crank, using good SBC connecting rods (Oh yeah, the pre-'56 322 used a BOLT at the wrist pin! How feakin much extra weight does that add?!). Total cost of forged pistons, good rods isn't that much more than new cast pistons and reconditioning the stock rods.
4-inch bore, so Moly rings, with a Zero gap second ring are readily available (you'd have missed that in the "vintage" build).
Stainless valves; radius faced exhaust, back-cut intake.
Ported and polished heads...maybe Extrude hone the exhaust.
'61-'65 401 aluminum 1.6 rockers
Intake risers under the vintage Weiand 2x4
MSD distributor, painted black.
Reground cam from COMP, using new profiles and cutting edge design technology. COMP beehive valve springs to remove weight.
Custom built crank s****er in the oil pan.

Those are both EXACTLY the way to build a 322 Nailhead, using nothing exotic, that most guys could duplicate for a reasonable cost with a reasonable amount of effort.

As a former tech editor, I'd MUCH rather show guys how to apply modern build techniques to a vintage engine. Show them things like the 4-inch bore/moly rings...show them that offset grinding the crank is an option, that aftermarket SBC rods are affordable and could be applied, show them that custom forged pistons are an expense, but not terribly more than cast pistons, with the advantages of much lighter weight, moving the pin height, and if it does break it won't shatter like cast and take out your block.

Hot Rodding has always been about taking your favorite engine or car, and building it to perform better using whatever you could afford. It's never really been about shunning performance just for a look or build style.


And how about doing away with the cut-off date, instead using "dead" or "obsolete" engine families; Olds Rocket, Buick Nailhead, Flat Head, early Hemi, Y-block and Chevy W-engine. I'm sure I forgot some...It'd be tradtional hot rod engines that you don't see every day, that generate some visual excitement. Organize the magazine chapters by cut-offs if you want. I don't think you can keep the 409 out, or the late big Olds and Pontiacs.
No "modern" engines, though: Olds 455, Buick430/455, Pontiac 400/455, Mopar 413/426/440/383, Ford FE...basically, nothing you can order a brand new intake and aluminum heads for.

-Brad

 

I think a 57' cutoff would be better than a 60' model year cutoff because a lot of musclecar mills were coming out in 58-60 that have highly developed aftermarket support.

389 pontiac
B Mopars
FE Fords
392 Chrysler Hemi
MEL's
etc

For a 1960 cutoff, I think that stock block and heads, with no welding of heads, wet sump, and any cast intake would be good rules. No injection or forced induction, roller cams, or magnetos. Pump gas would also be needed.

Show how to make hot rod motors - not race motors. It will also keep the costs down and entries up.

Later blocks should be able to be used if they are unchanged from the 1960 cutoff date. This would allow people to find engines easier. All 383 and 413 mopar bottom ends are the same pretty much, as are all 283 chevys. Why make someone search for a date code on a block if later ones are more plentiful, and identical.

No roller cams since they simply are not availble for all engines. You can bore/stroke/port etc. I would have two cl***es. Under 300ci and over 300 ci. This will allow the old flathead guys a chance to play without having to go against a 480ci stroked Hemi.

 

I'm glad to see this thread get launched. As a co-founder and Technical Director of the first few Engine Masters Challenges, I have another perspective (or two) to share.

First, the Engine Masters deal works because of how it's scored. It's not about "peak" power or HP/ci, but average power (both TQ and HP) produced over a given rpm range (2,500-6,500 typically). This levels the playing field as long as displacements are limited. A torque monster has as much chance as a higher rpm screamer. It just depends how the builder did it..

Also- gasoline is the ONLY way to go here. These engines should have a life beyond the dyno racing.

But, all this is just fun talk unless you face the real monster- Money!

You'll need a well-equipped dyno (with adapters for all these cool engines), a few days (depending on how many powerplants actually show up) to use this dyno, and some sort of award for the top finishers.

All of these things cost money, and if you want to rely upon "entry fees" to make it happen, it'll cost each participant a ton of dough.

So, before getting fired up over how you'd build your specific engine, consider whether or not this can happen. Will it be sponsored? What will the winners recieve? Who will pay for it? Where could it take place?

I developed the Engine Masters Challenge to encourage the development of new high-efficiency parts for the street market. It has worked, and a large quan***y of newly-developed aftermarket parts are now available where there were none before. I'd like to think Engine Masters had something to do with that.

But, obviously, there were goals and limits hammered out "philosophically" long before the Challenge began. If this is ever to be more than a pipe dream, someone is going to have to ***ume the responsibility of creating and enforcing a rules package that everyone can easily understand and be compe***ive with. And, of course, someone is going to have to figure out a way for it to be paid for. I'd be willing to ***ist anyone in this, but I cannot accept this responsibility personally at this time.

~or~

"I'll tell ya how to do it, but I can't do it for ya"

It's a neat idea we toyed with a few years ago...but could not generate adequate funds (or interest in creating those funds) to make it happen.

~Scotch~