I've zeroed in on what I think I want for the truck as far as power. I have some questions for those of you in the know about these motors. This board got me "settled" on that, believe it or not, by the engine masters challenge topic. Maybe my employer will get involved if that can happen. With or without em that's what I want. I'm fixed on an idea for the front suspension that's so obvious I can't believe I've not seen it in a while. My questions are about things like bellhousing patterns, average cost and availablity, quirks and problems to watch for? As much a hot rod as the truck will be I don't really give a **** about top performance. I know multi-carb set ups are part and parcel to them, I have found some sites with casting no.s and such. How do they behave? Anyone ever had one in a daily driver? Thanx in advance for your thoughts.
I'm working with Lamar Walden in Doraville, GA to build a 480-inch stroker 409 for my '57 wagon. MSD has an distributor for them, Lamar makes a sleeve that accepts standard SBC distributors. The stock pistons are heavy as hell, but unless you want forged for $800, you'll have to live with a set of Egge. Truck water pumps are better, because they have a bigger bearing. Bellhousing is same as any Chevy BBC or SBC. Can't reliably ID whether it's a 348 or 409 by the oil pan dipstick location. COMP makes decent grinds for them. Rockers are unique to 348/409. Rollers are available, but Lamars are the only ones that are the true ratio (I think they're 1.75, or 1.7--don't remember) There are small port heads, which are pretty common--the large port heads are for the later 425-horse engines. Aftermarket intakes were available, but they were usually for the smaller port heads. The intakes are not interchangeable from the larger to smaller heads. Hate to keep pimping Lamar, but he's pretty much devoted the last 30 years to making them run like scalded dogs. He has a 2x4 intake that is much better than the factory 2x4. And if price isn't much of an object, he's about to come out with aluminum -690 heads. He already has aluminum Z11 versions. He also has new aluminum water pumps. It's a good idea to run four bolt mains (available). Don't reuse the stock valves. They can come apart. The block castings are thin, where the outside side of the block meets the deck. It's not uncommon to see them cracked along the outside (and repaired). What would happen is a strong engine would torque over, and the engine mount would do its job, but the block would keep trying to pull away, and crack along the top. An old-fashioned torque strap running to the head will help. -Brad
Thank you brad...kinda what I was lookin for. Being a custom hot rod project, as I said big power doesn't concern me much. I do know there's been a movement to revive these things for nostalgia racing and apparently your guy is the man. I think it's just a kool lookin motor and will make a nice surprise when the hood gets lifted. Regarding the heavy pistons, I know that can be detrimental in overuse of the loud pedal. Can I ***ume the 348's are lighter than the 409's? I know this would be reaching a bunch...wasn't there a 348 fuelie? I need to get the SBC in there now, ***essed and running. Gotta sell it and I really think this is what I want. Again thanx. Anyone else?
The bore on a 348 is smaller, so naturally it's going to be lighter. Just a different sized brick running up and down the bore, but still a brick. Regarding the 348 Fuelie--they were only prototyped from the factory, never in production. And Lamar has one of them! Algon made a mechanical FI set-up for them. Again, for the small port heads. They pop up every now and then. Expect to part with some favored anatomy to buy one. Same with Edelbrock valve covers. I've seen two pairs, and everyone I ever talk to says they're horrendously expensive. When I've asked guys about finding a set, they usually just laugh. There's a guy on ebay who sells chrome steel versions without the original Bowtie logo, and another guy selling finned aluminum covers with 348 or 409 cast into them, or just finned all the way across. They look like black painted or wrinkle coat with the tops of the fins cleaned off in his photos. I can't speak for the quality...yet. But I will be getting a set and running them bare cast aluminum. -Brad
I also just happened to think about the truck blocks. They have a big notch in the block to unshroud the exhaust valve. The truck blocks are a lot more common than car blocks. The notch kills compression ratio. Lamar prefers the car blocks to the truck blocks, because of the compression difference (I guess even with custom forged pistons, which I would think allows him to tune CR more). He does say the unshrouded exhaust valve is nice, but it comes at too much loss in CR. HOWEVER, if he's building a blower motor (lower CR), he likes the truck block because the exhaust flows better. I don't know enough about the whole thing yet, but I've heard an intersting take on the subject that said "If you have the choice to go with airflow or compression, choose airflow." -Brad
i have a 58 motor...what are the heads that i want too get??? also a 60 block any secrets?? the 58 is going too get a 2x4, prob your friends ... going into a 48 thames...the 60 is going into a 29 roadster wt trips wt cams oil pumps ect
Don't know off the top of my head what are the "good" 348 heads. There are a couple different castings... Lamar doesn't make an intake for the low-horse heads, so you'll have to use either a factory intake, vintage aftermarket, or I've seen that Offy still makes them. I know Lamar prefers to stick to 409s, but if you're serious about buying parts from him, he'll hook you up with the info needed to make the 348 do what you want. He does say not to use a high-volume oil pump, because it'll **** the pan dry. I did a story with him last year for Chevy Rumble magazine that answered a ton of interchange and general questions. I'll try to find it. He doesn't have a website. Weird, a guy who spends all his time developing the 409, doesn't have a website... His number is 770-449-0315. -Brad
Vic, does your block have little steam holes next to each spark plug location? The early 58 stuff does not, the later heads DO! Later 58-59 blocks will have a pad under the plug area the may or may not be drilled out to mate with the steam holes in the later heads. Later heads 59-on also have a water jacket OUTSIDE the plugs that prolongs plug life etc....... Back to the main question. Brad is into top notch stuff, his experience is worth listening to him. I tend to put together basic old hotrod motors. I built my 350 for my 54 Chevy for around $800 (needed no bore). My 348 was close to $2000-2500? Some parts are more money. It is worthe it, the engines are fun to drive, torque upon torque!
Here's a link to Lamar's 409 catalog, the guy makes some amazing stuff. http://www.lamarwaldenautomotive.com/id6.html I've also seen a blower intake on the bay recently, love to have that!
Not to be a jack-***, but... Saying "truck water pump" will get you the wrong part. 99% of the time you'll wind up with the ungangly raised fan location pump, and not the larger bearing p***enger pump. What you should say is a "late" p***enger car water pump. Do note, however, that these pumps require a different pulley than the smaller bearing pumps (which, really, would work fine in a "hot rod" type application). In regards to the aluminum parts, they aren't something that Lamar is making, despite what it seems like he likes to tell people. A guy named Rich Rojeski is the one that's actually doing the new aluminum heads and other items, hence the CRW logo that's on them. Lamar just does some machining and retail of the Z11 style items. Rich is currently working on the 690/583 style parts with a fellow named Vince Chiappardi. While Lamar will probably be selling these items, they aren't going to be exclusive to him. Some others such as Day Automotive will also likely be selling them once they're finished. The two bolt mains will suffice in anything but the insane, big-inch, high horsepower, stroker engines. If you keep it stock or mild, the two bolts will be fine. Truck blocks.... Somewhere along the line, in about '60 or so, the 348 truck blocks "lost" a notch in the cylinder. The earlier blocks had two notches, the laters only had one. All 348 p***enger blocks have one notch. All non-replacement 409 truck blocks have one notch. Some of the other big 348/409 builders (who, in all honesty are just as "good" as Lamar) tend to prefer these blocks for their high-performance builds, so take it for what it's worth. Some other guys who "know their ****" when it comes to W-engines are: Jack Gibbs @ 409 Chevy Performance (in CA): http://409chevyperformance.com/ Aubrey Bruneau (in Canada): http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/intro.html Tony Shaeffer @ Day Automotive in Independance, MO (no website, don't have a phone # for him)
Here are some pictures of valve covers that I came across on eBay. The Edlebrock pair sold earlier this month, and the other pictures are from a 2001 auction by someone who didn't know who they had been made by. I don't remember his name, but at the Portland Swap Meet in 2001, there was a guy who I think was from Portland who had an indoor booth filled with new aluminum intakes, heads, and finned valve covers for these engines. Dave http://www.roadsters.com/
Good news! Edelbrock is repopping the finned valve covers and (drum roll please) selling brand new aluminum heads and two 2x4 intakes(one for 348s and one for 409s): http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11783 Their new 2008 catalog (see page 12): http://www.edelbrock.com/images/home/npb_2008.pdf
I'm a 348/409 nut. I have a 476 short block (see pic) and I sold my AlGon mechanical injection (see pics). -Mike
This thread really got me going! I love the 348/409 oddball stuff (I'm an oddball).... Pic 1: 348/409 Boat water-cooled manifolds Pic 2: Same manifold - different view Pic 3: Weiand 348 6x2 manifold Pic 4: Mooneyes valve covers Pic 5: AlGon pedal and pump for the mechanical fuel injection
I have a '58 Chevy that is screaming for a W-motor, and I have a '58 block laying around, this is very helpful. Thanks for sharing, fellas...
Rolf: you could check: www.348-409.com for referrence. Also, with all the 409 parts coming out you may want to upgrade to a 409. I may put my 409 in my '60 Impala. Do you have 348 heads? All you really need is a good block and pair of heads. Pretty much everything else is reproduced.
Here's my daily driver, as you can tell I am partial to 'W' motors. Nine years on the road and no problems.
I agree with that, especially if he is building a cruiser, not a radically-cammed race car...A guy in our club runs a truck block 348 in his roadster...he seems to have no problem breaking the skippies loose in any gear!
I looked all over for that issue! Tried back issue etc, no dice. I'd love to see it, even if it was a pdf or a scan. I too like W-engines, since my 1964 Impala SS and dads 1964 Impala.
W motors are tough. A friend built a 409 from an early 60s dumptruck and learned a few things at the time. Like don't count on any old motor with W heads being a 409 even if the dipstick is in the right place. He bought 3 348s before the dumptruck motor came along. 2 of the 348s had 3deuce manifolds on them, one with carbs and linkage. (he offered them for sale $300 for both in the newpaper at the time but had no takers. Called around car guys... offered themm for free, nobody cared. We set them at the curb on trash day and the junkman loaded them up for s****. Sad but true.) He built the dumptruck motor with stock aftermarket pistons and camshaft. We installed it in his 64 SS Impala and it would smoke the tires every time you punched it in any gear, especially with the 2 4bbl Offy manifold installed. He repaced the 2-4bbl manifold with the stock 1 4bbl when gas got to $1.50 a gallon, and still could smoke the tires but got 10MPG rather than the 6-7 with dual carbs. The kid who bought the car had no freaking idea what that engine was and came back about a month later to say he couldn't the car got such poor MPG! He replaced the engine with a 350. I wonder if the 409 is still on his gargae floor.
Should you or anyone else have interest, I know a guy with an Algon for the409-425hp 409 heads. It was an NOS intake and has been converted (destroyed in my opinion) to EFI. The set-up is all new, unused, and complete with electronics...
There are other aftermarket valve cover mfgs, than Offy and Moon. Here's a set I run on my just finished 62 Biscayne 409. BTW, Eldelbrock has a new head, soon to be released. It was shown at SEMA. Also the Eddy waterpump is already in production, and rumors abound that they will retool a new intake. All I can do is reiterate the advice to join the 348-409 forum, to stay up to date. We have a great group of guys(albeit, many lean to the drag racing side of the hobby) who are full of knowledge.
I have not spent as much time at 348-409.com since I got my car on the road...........I feel bad about that!
The Jalopy Journal
