Technical T Steering problem, solutions ? suggestions ?

As you may know from my build thread I have designed and built from scratch my own front suspension locating the axle out in front of the spring and having the spring mounted off the side of the bones I built.

Using a forged 4" dropped axle I have the deep drop 3 3/4" drop steering arms mounted on my spindles.

As you can see, the steering arms don't go low enough to let the tie rod cross freely under the bones. As well when you look at the pictures you can see that the tie rod would cross right under the spring shackles which will create some binding as the shackle tries to work.

What I have in mind is to lower (modify) the steering arm eyes (where the tie rod mounts) by about 3/4 of an inch and also moving the eye back about an inch and a half.

That would get the tie rod under the bones and clear of the spring.

Would I encounter any problems in doing this ? Basically I want to know if it will work and be safe.

The alternative is to run the tie rod across the top of the frame behind the rad, or to go out in front of the axle, neither of which appeals to me.

Any info ,ideas, or suggestions ?

 

From my experience those steering arms are kinda floppy to begin with and extending them would make things worse. Putting the center link out front may be your best bet.

 

Based off the pictures, I don't think you will have interference with the shackles. Set it up with a tie rod and just the main leaf with a spacer to take the place of the spring pack to cycle it through a full compression and a left/right turn. I just don't like the tie rod in front, plus it isn't optimal geometry.
If all you need to do is drop them a bit more, go for it. I don't think I would extend them any longer.

 

The pictures may be a bit deceptive. I tried to install the tie rod for a test fit and could not get it in place, the steering arms were not low enough.

As well there is definite contact with the bottom back lower part of the shackle which hangs down a small bit lower than the bottom of the wishbone.

I do think I would have to go back a small bit to be clear of the spring.

How much does a tie rod move front to rear as it cycles through the range of movement side to side ?

 

The tie rod moves a fair bit front to back during the coarse of turning, several inches. You may want to rework the shackles to drop no more than the lower plane of the bones. Then just drop the arms enough to clear the bones. Or if you are talking a real small amount, maybe make up some new shackle plates that a just a hair shorter. It wouldn't take much to get it to clear.

 

Make sure the steering arms are forged, if you attempt to drop them a bit.
I wouldn't ty it with cast arms.

 

That is never the best bet. It makes for an inverted Ackerman angle, which can produce downright dangerous steering characteristics.

Re-taper the steering arms so that the tie rod ends mount taper up.


If they already are, then use dropped tie rod ends.

 

Total performance, pre Speedway, sold a lot of Ts with front steer. Arms were angled out very near the rotors to compensate. The dropped tie rod ends might do the trick, still possible they may hang pretty low or contact the radius rods near full lock with that long sweep.

 

The problem I can see with those dropped tie rod arms is the length of them. The sweep of the drop is pretty long and the overall length of the tie rod is 8".
That's longer than I have room for I think.

 

I am also wondering what going a little lower to get the tie rod under the bones will do to my scrub line

 

Check out El Bombero's current thread "Rolling Bones front suspension"........lots of info and pic's. Looks like the "Bones" guys run their tie rod directly under the spring.

 

Make your own arms out of 3/4" plate (similar to Speedways #91632033 arms); but to the length and depth of bend you need. Made lots of homemade arms before companies started to manufacture them. We have also heated and slightly bent the CE forged arms with no problem either.

 

I think that setup is with an undropped '32 axle.

 

I think you are right. Here are a couple of examples of the direction I am leaning towards right now, running the tie rod above the frame behind the rad.

Shadow Rods does it and it has also been done by another HAMB member.
I'm not sure if this is the way to go but it is interesting.

 

I wonder how that would be with the rod over the frame with body roll on cornering.
I agree with making your own and get the tie rod exactly where you need it, just remember to set them for correct Ackerman. Oh and none of this changes the scrub point. JW

 

There was thread on Super Bell's longer arms for this situation, no actual dimensions and it got off on the wrong direction. Maybe they are long enough to get behind your shackle.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...suicide-front-steer-arms.677470/#post-7530943

 

I have this exact same setup. Like you said everything is fighting for the same space. How much clearance do you need? Mine tie rod was rubbing the bones and really close to the shackles An 1/8" spacer between the rod end and steering arm was enough to make it work. It's really tight but it works.


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Blue one, how much are you missing the wishbones and spring by? I just walked out and looked at my "T", and I have the Speedway copy of those arms and a roughly 3" dropped axle, and hairpins and I'm still comfortably clearing this deal. I'm thinking that if it's just a smidge that your missing, go ahead and bend it say 1/4" more or so. I don't think I'd go too much more than that, but you really don't need any more clearance there than what is needed to turn.

I also have to second Landseaandair's concerns about these arms being "floppy". I have been fighting just that with my Speedway copies of these. Yours however look quite a bit more robust than mine, so they might not present a problem. I am very seriously considering a small gusset on mine to stiffen them up a bit in the near future. Mine are supposed to be forged as well.

 

Seems like lately, most of the forgings are forgeries.

 

Ha ha, probably has a lot to do with the grade of steel itself. In some ways ductile cast iron may be stronger than the "forged" steel parts their selling today, at least in rigidity. Wonder what the grade of Henry's old steel was cause it's some tuff shit.

 

I was talking to my local rod shop today, the arms I have are TCI and are forged steel.
They are quite strong and the feeling is that I should have no trouble going another 3/4" to 1" drop to get the clearance I need under the wishbones and spring.
Remember that my axle is a 4" drop.

The plan is to buy another pair of arms and cut the extra length I need from them including the tie rod eye, then weld ( full penetration TIG weld ) them to the length I need essentially making a custom length pair from 2 sets.

Now before everyone freaks out, remember I am a certified professional pressure - TIG welder and also a Welding Inspector.

I'll do the work properly including appropriate testing ( I have access to magnetic particle crack testing equipment and also X- ray ) afterwards.

 

That sound like a cool plan Larry. JW

 

Well, I am at a bit of a loss on what to do a this point. I decided against the cut and weld plan, deciding to try bending a little more for a lower drop.
I made up a jig and dropped an arm as much as I could get by heating and bending and it is still not enough.
This thing is kicking my butt and I'm a little confused at what to do with it.
I'll research as much as possible but it looks like going under the bones is out as it will be too low.
Going through the bones as I have seen done is interesting but with my axle being 3 1/2" ahead of the spring that won't be possible without running into the spring itself.

I'm sure I'll figure this out but....

 

You have painted your self into a corner !! I think your only solution is to go out front, thats if you can bend some bolt on arms out enough to achieve correct Ackerman and not interfere with thee rotors or wheel. JW

 

Painted into a corner is how it feels. I'm not done yet
I refuse to put the steering arms out front as that is not the proper way to do it.
I said that going through the bones wouldn't be possible, but looking at it some more makes me think it could be done.
I'm looking at something like this as an option even if I have to make my own steering arms and of course I'll have to modify my wishbones which is not impossible since I built them in the first place .

 

Well scratch that idea, it won't work either. A little thing like half the thickness of the frame is directly behind the wishbone where the tie rod would run.
It's starting to look like the behind the rad and above the frame option will be my last resort.
Going to call Shadow Rods and see if I can buy a pair of their lower steering arms as I posted in the pictures above.

 

Just a note here, 26TFordPU mentioned body roll interference with frame rails on cornering:

With the wishbone split, (and their adequate length) the axle will act as an 'anti-roll bar'. Frame will stay in a 'square' plane when cornering, only slightly twisting the 'I' beam...no more than 1/2" rail movement, usually.

 

i bought my stuff from the guy everyone hates. i almost ordered the arms you have but eric steered me straight. he said i needed a deeper drop on the arms or else the tierod wouldn't clear. he sent me these instead. i have nearly two inches of clearence now.





more pics here

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/so-i've-been-collecting-parts.670760/

 

Thanks, I think that if I had the spring mounted on top of the axle like yours I wouldn't have a problem.

Mounted off the sides of the bones is what I'm up against.
I'll get it worked out.

 

i just measured. i have an inch and 5/8 between the tierod and bones. that isn't enough to clear your shackle through it's range of motion?