Projects Ford 200 6 cylinder in 61 Comet

Hello all, picked up a 1961 Comet a month ago with a tired 144 c.u. 6 in it. Got lucky and a friend with a 65 Ranchero was going to a v8 and I snagged the 200. I know it's a simple swap, but want to get a bit more pep out of the 200, on a budget, ($500 or less). What's the best, simple upgrades I can make, that I can feel?
The Comet has the 2 speed automatic and stock 3:50 geared, small rear end as it sits. Plan to upgrade to a C4 later. Will it bolt to the 65 model 200?
Is Pertronix better to use than later model Duraspark? Are headers worth investing in on a basically stock engine? What's a good carb upgrade?
For those who may have checked threads about Comets, this the same one that Flathead Johnny looked at a few years ago in M***. Somehow, it made it's way to North Carolina and I now OWN IT.
Any info/suggestions are appreciated. Never posted pics before, but I will when I get the hang of it,(sorry I'm old), thanks!

 

My daily driver is a '60 Ranchero with a 200 in it from a 1975 Maverick. I've made some small changes to a stock motor so I'll p*** those on.
I have a later Duraspark in mine. It was one of the best things I did. It cleaned up the idle and low end response with better spark. I'm not positive when they changed it so it can be swapped in. I know the earliest 144 and 170s won't accept the later Duraspark. I think a 1965 200 is ok but not positive. I originally had a 200 from a 1967 Mustang that worked with the Duraspark distributor.
I have newer Carter YF carb on it, stock carb from about a 1975 Maverick. So far those two things are the only changes I've made except using the adjustable valve train from a 144 or 170. Make sure you keep that from your 144. I want to upgrade my cam and add compression when I rebuild the motor somewhere down the line.
A C4 will bolt on to most 200's. Again, it depends on what year 200 you have but a 1965 should be ok. I run a toploader overdrive trans (4 speed but 4th is overdrive) in mine and consistently pull mid 20s for mileage as long as I don't get crazy. I have a Maverick 8" rear with 3.55 gears but wonder if 3.40s may be a bit better.

 

If it's a '65, it most likely has a 5 bolt bellhousing so finding a C-4 may be a little more difficult than for a 6 bolt.

 

Okay, first figure out if it is a '65 or later, and hope it's a bit later if possible. The reason I say that is that in '66 they went to what is called dual pattern blocks that will accept not only your Ford -O- Matic, but also the later C/4. Check the casting numbers which should be on the p***enger side of the block. You are looking for a number that has a "C5" or C6, or C7 or D prefix number. The C tells us it's the sixties, the 5,6,7,8, what have you tell you the year. So '65 will be C5.

Now, '65 was the first year for 200s and they made a bunch of running changes during that time. The distributer hole got bigger somewhere there, and a bunch of other stuff. They made an early C/4 in '65, but it's a one year bell housing kinda deal, and the one I have is the only one I have ever seen. I would NOT recommend putting the Ford-O-Matic in anything other than the closest dumpster, never back in the car. They were **** new, and they never will get better. The C/4 in this car is the first step in actually going faster because of the three closer spaced gears and a slightly lower first gear.

Next, take the stock distributer and find the same dumpster that the Ford-O-Matic went into and wind up real hard and throw it in too! Hard so that it break into bit and can never darken another engine's life! That is the other thing that holds these engines back and makes them "feeble" in the minds of performance people. This has nothing to do with being points type stuff, it has everything to do with not having a functional advance mechanism. See, the ignition system was an all vacuum type deal called the Load-O-Matic, and if the carb has ever been exchanged on the engine, there is about a 75% chance that it no longer has an ignition curve, period. If it is an early with the smaller hole, find an old Mallory unit and fit it with a pertronix, or, if it's later, grab a post '68 distributor and stab it in, I wouldn't do it without a Pertronix, but that me. Even better, grab a Dura spark unit and a blue grommet control box, and hit me up for the instructions for recurving one of these to work even better and be done.

I love using Weber 32/36 carbs on these, and again, hit me up and I'll give you jetting specs to get you close. Cl***ic inlines makes the best adaptors for these and they are right about 75.00, but the difference over a stock carb is day and night!Vw specific shops always have a pile of these carbs in the corner and they are about 25.00 each. Rebuild kits will set you back 30.00.

Last thing, grab a post '68 exhaust manifold, too. They went from 1 3/4" to 2", and with a bit of Porting time can easily go 2 1/4". Put a good high flow muffler on it and you'll swear you doubled the horsepower with these few mods.

 

Ford's thick film ignition module works great with a points distributor. Pick up the module and coil in the junk yard. Mine cost $10 for both. Look for a car with the module on a finned heat sink on the rad support, not on the distributor. Module is the same but the remote ones are more reliable and last longer because they keep cooler.

Instructions on the net for wiring it to your car.

 

Hey Chip...
I would like the instructions to recurve the Dura-Spark and the jetting specs for the
32/38 Weber.....
Thanx LW

 

'64 distributor has a functional centrifugal advance. But only the '64 will fit the early engines due to the different size hole and the oil pump driveshaft size.

Happy Hunting

Cosmo

 

Exactly what he said.

 

Correct the Fordamatic ****s, but I beg to differ about the "one year" 5 bolt C-4.

The 3 speed Cruisomatic in the 1964 Ford Fairlane is a 5 bolt C-4 . It is the dual range 5 bolt C-4 also known as the Green Dot C-4. I have one in my 64 Fairlane Sports Coupe. In 64 Ford called all their 3 speed autos Cruisomatics including the new C-4.

So if he indeed has a 5 bolt block, a 64 65 Fairlane/Mustang 3 speed Cruisomatic is the correct bellhousing and should adapt a later C-4. Otherwise he could use the 5 bolt Fairlane/Mustang C-4 if he finds the whole transmission. Simply changing out the valve body would eliminate the Green Dot feature and give it a modern shift pattern.

The C-4 was also in some 64 289 Galaxies but he needs to be careful with full size as the FMX iron 50s family Cruisomatics were offered as well especially with big blocks.

The C-5 was a later late 70s-80s transmission that had a lock up tourque converter, Ford broke it's own rules with the C letter transmossion date codes as the C-3 LD 70s "pinto" and C-5 late 70s lockup..precursor to the AOD. A c-3 could also be a 63 Fordomaic. One almost needs a PHD when fooling with Fords.

Of course there is always the option of manual and those parts are much more common.

 

I'm sorry Cosmo. I hate to sound like the know-it -all, but the distributers in '64 were no different than any of the others from '60-'68. All were Load-O-Matic to early C8.

Sorry, I forget the term Cruise-O-Matic for the '65 transmissions. as you said they are basically a valve body away from a C4. As a matter of fact, mine is the '65 only bell with a later V8 C/4 attached which took some fairly serious input shaft machine work and jiggery-poke to accomplish.

Ya gotta remember that we are talking Falcon sixes here when you throwing things like five bolt and Fairlane terms around. The Falcon six uses a completely different bell that even the small block stuff, and while yes I did forget that Mustangs will have the small bolt pattern Cruise-O-Matic, but the fact remains that in the Falcon six world that is a one year only deal that is pretty thin on the ground. Best to hope for a later block on this one. or even better that someone comes up with a viable auto trans swap for something with a sorely needed overdrive for these engines. Lord knows I've tried.

 

Lw, hit me up with a message. The re-curve stuff is in a book that I have and someone else's intellectual property, so I can't in good conscious reprint it here. The Weber details I'll have to find my notes from my wagon.

 

Wow. Then the centrifugal advance weights in my 1964 Ford 170 distributor

Sooooo, these little spring-y things in my 1964 170cid distributor, pictured below - what ARE they, and do I really NEED them??

The engine is obviously early, note the road draft tube, and unmolested (still had original, dated, fan belts on it).

The only real problem with being a 'Know-It-All', is when you don't...

Cosmo

 

Those little spring-y things pull the vacuum advance plate back not centrifugal advance. If your distributer has centrifugal advance you can grab the rotor and turn it a ways in the same direction that it normaly turns. If it does not turn there isn't any centrifugal advance. You can use a late distributer if you change the oil pump to match. In 66-67 they came both ways but most had the loadomatic 1968 up had regular distributers.

 

What is pictured above is a Load-O-Matic distributor. It does NOT have conventional centrifugal advance weights.

Take that out of your engine, head for the nearest bridge, and throw it off, as hard as you can.

 

See...

 

Trust us. I daily-drive a 144 that you would swear is a 250.

 

I checked and my engine is a 65 model,(C5DE on block). It has the road down tube on it and looks identical to the 144 I removed, except a different carb on it. Does this mean it's an early 65 and the only thing I've gain is cubic inches?
As far as going with a weber 32/36 carb, what should I get, (DG,DF,DC, etc). What is best for this engine and what is the difference between them?
From what I've read, there is no way to adapt a C4 to this engine, right? I can round up the distributor, larger exhaust manifold and other goodies, but would it be worth it if I still have to run the 2 speed auto?

 

I AM chagrined. Apologies to all. I trusted the Ford people on this, took a quick look-see, saw springs and ran with the ill-informed. I used to think I was not that stupid....

I hereby give up on the Ford Forums, and, well, all forums that are not HAMB.

Cosmo.

Eating crow isn't that bad, when you look around and notice all the company you have...

 

No shame, man. We've all had to learn somehow.

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Hey as for the ignition I heard it's pretty good if you use some type pertronix system anything with electronic ignition will get you better mpg supposedly.. I have a 66 mustang with a 65 200ci.. Of it has 5 freeze plugs on the side of the block it'll be a 200 with 7 main bearings=indestructible bottom end.. Check out a site called Clifford performance or inline performance . A nice upgrade would be a header causing the motor to breath a lot better.. With some 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 " exhaust... Disc brakes are a nice upgrade too.. And a c4 WILL bolt straight up to the 200.. A t-5 is a better upgrade though being a stick rather than a manual.. But if you want to go kinda old school with the falcon .. I would just split the manifold and not use a header.. And run 2 2" pipes to some gl*** packs (my uncle had this exhaust setup on a 68 mustang back in the 90's said it used to wake up the neighborhood and it sounded pretty good! Haha) lower the 61 a couple inches, and maybe some multiple carbs for eye candy? (; just a thaught ..


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66straight6

 

Diamond tuck upholstery would look pretty sick too I think!!


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66straight6

 

A '68 or later distributor with a Pertronix works well. Also, a later Duraspark distributor triggered by either a GM or Ford module gives good results. Putting a Pertronix in a Load-o-matic is wasted effort. Poor curve even for a stock engine.

The reason you can't swap pre-64 distributors with the later ones is because they changed the oil pump drive shaft from 1/4" to 5/16". When they did that the distributor shaft increased in size from .495" to .505" so the later distributor will not fit the block or the early oil pump drive. You could machine the distributor and swap pumps.
Check out http://fordsix.com/forum/ .

 

No problem Cosmo! I just didn't want somebody to go off looking for an elusive fifty year old part that doesn't exist. I hate it when I start to write something and I know I sound like the know it all guy, but I've a bit over thirty years in figuring out what works on these things...

Again, not wanting to sound like the know it all, just putting a Pertronix in these will do absolutely nothing. The problem itself is that the distributor has no mechanical advance properties. If the carb was turned in as a core for a rebuilt in say '76 or so, the chances that it has the proper "spark control valve" are both slim and none. That means the ignition timing doesn't advance as the RPMs rise, and that why these little engines have the reputation of being "pokey" or not able to go faster than say 60mph. Without advance, the engine just hits a wall in power production at about 3500 rpm. Ford figured this out in '68 and went to a traditional mechanical advance distributor with a vacuum cruise ***ist, as most vehicle have.
The problem comes in at the late '64 or early '65 point, as the earlier blocks have a smaller distributor hole. There is a Davis D.U.I distributor available for the earlier stuff, so you can go that route, or there is earlier Mallory dual point stuff out there too that the Pertronix will greatly help with better spark and no wearing characteristics.

I always tell guys to change out their distributor first before messing with anything else, 'cause the difference is like night and day!

 

Sorry if I got something mixed up or lead him down the wrong path, I do not know much about the dizzys performance end.. But all I do know is that supposedly electronic ignition is better than points? I'm still stuck with points for the time being.. And quite some info you know about them dizzys lol body work nd exhaust are my forte .. Not electrical. So my apologies


-66straight6
Pollution is like tobacco , just crave the smell

 

Good info guys. Anyone have a part # for the early Mallory Dual point or what year to look for? Also would like more specifics on the Weber 32/36 model, (DF, DG, DC), which is best and easiest to install?

 

Addind an electronic trigger to Load-O-Matic distributor is a waste of time and money.

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The Mallory I have has a I.D. number of 2362001. And, that is for the later hole size. I bought this through Speedway about 25 years ago, and it was loaded with a predecessor to the Pertronix almost immediately. My engine is a fairly early '65 200, so that might be a good thing for the original poster.

50 Coupe, did my message reach you yesterday? I kinda went over the carbs in that.

The Weber you want is a 32/36 DGV series progressive carb. Another would be a DGEV. The first is manual choke, the second is electric choke. There is also the DGAV which is a hot water choke but I'd p*** on that one because I've never seen a well functioning water choke in my life. I'm not a fan of chokes in most cases anyway, but that and manifold heat are two things that perplex desert dwellers on an everyday basis anyway... DGV will always get my vote. Check with ANY VW specific shop in your area, as if they have been around a bit will have pulled one of the miserable conversions that use these carbs off of an air cooled VW at some time in their past. That was the car these carbs didn't work very well on, and the kits sold in the millions! I refuse to pay more than 25.00 for a good buildable Weber DGV, and unless Godzilla has stepped on it, it's rebuild able. The adaptor should come from Cl***icinlines.com, and sells for about 75.00 and is by far the best I have ever used.

 

Louvers, never got your message on the carbs. Just looked at the Cl***ic inlines site and got some good info there though. How does $100 sound for a "suppossedly new" WEber DGEV? Gotta call the seller about it later tonight. Anything in particular I should as them?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS...Parts_Accessories&hash=item35dad8d314&vxp=mtr

Can always get one of these and complicate things

 

Sounds like a great deal if it is unused. you will have to do some jetting, though.