Hello, I am new to the board and have spent the last 4 hours reading over posts so that I understand the atmosphere of this board. Anyway, this topic has to do with the true safety of our cars. I am 22 years old so my experience is rather limited in comparison. I was always under the impression that a cl***ic car was safer than the majority of newer cars (not new, late 80's - present) because of raw m***. Doesn't the thick steal have any protection? Wouldn't a 5500# 1970 Cadillac Fleetwood be safer than anything out of Korea? Obviously our cars do not have Airbags, collapsable steering columns or crunch zones, but there has to be some truth to the structural integrity? I really like how some of you guys added 3 point belts to your rods. That should account for something. I know I'm a newbie so please give me a little slack -Cory
The design of new cars vs. "Cl***ics" is totally different so it is hard to compare them If you get hit or hit something in that Caddy you are going to know you hit it - whiplash and all that good junk beacuse the frame/body aren't forgiving. Are your going to crush that import? - heck yeah are you safer? don't count on it. New cars are designed to "crush" when they impact - to reduce the forces put on the p***engers body's. lots of people get hurt in these cars...due to airbags and the area of impact but for the majority if you are in a frontal or rear accident you are going to be ok (with minor injuries) your bare bones '32 isn't going to have the protection of either of these cars. if you get into a decent accident consider yourself screwed.... I.E. broken bones etc. oh and people that have "whiplash" from and accident that is less than 8mph are USUSALLY so full of it that thier eyes are brown - your head gets more whiplash when you sneeze or "fall back" into a chair @ home. But there are always exceptions...prior condition, etc. Generally speaking this is true. would i do it to get some $$ out of an insurance company? As far as the 3point harness goes - it will probably vary depending on what type of car you have. Most of them can have the "pulley" bolted on the upper part of the Lock Pillar(door post, latch post (unless it is suicide doors) and then the buckle will be as ususal.
This seems to be a touchy subject here as far as I can tell. There seems to be a certain machismo ***ociated with driving these ancient vehicles. We seem to lull ourselves into thinking anything goes so long as it's embracing traditional vlaues. These are of course broad generalizations and we all know anytime we do that we are at times as much right as wrong. So bottom line - be your own man. It's YOUR **** in the drivers seat. Personally I strive to try and add what ever "upgrades" that I can while trying to maintain a balance to what I think is practical. The absolute NEATEST car I EVER saw was an old '33 Willys coupe. It was a street car that LOOKED like an old dragcar. Inside it was barebones as a drag car should look. Seats and a harness that was IT.....well almost - if you looked CLOSE - awwhhh hell who am I kidding - IF the owner SHOWED you - you would see where he had a false firewall - hiding several modern conviences - including HEATER. The entire car was this way - all LOOKED vintage at a glance or even a stare, but if you looked close you would see there were even crumple zones built into the ch***is. This car was a true modern Hot Rod built in the true old spirit of hot rodding - which to me was always build the best you can - and this guy did it while preserving the LOOKS we all love. A true innovator. I wish I had pics of this car as it has truely inspired me. This weekend I spent all day Saurday making my steering column collaspeable. While not entirely invisible - it will be somewhat difficult to detect that I messed with it when I am done. The point being that each of us can challenge ourselves and the "state of the art" to incorporate safer devices while maintaining the vintage looks we are after - all's it takes is a little effort and creativity.
Certainly safer. There are no 150 pound Sumo-wrestlers. My friend was in a head-on Driving a '66 Buick on PR-2, 20 klics fron San Juan; hit a '69 Corona. His nose was bloodied, forehead cut pretty bad, arms and shoulders swelled up and hurt for a month. After putting in a new windshield, radiator/front clip, straightening the steering wheel, the guy used that car for a daily. Of couse it needed more work, the doors didn't fit very good, and he complained about the wheel alignment. The 4 Puerto Ricans in the rice-burner were all killed. I've seen 50 - 70 mph+ rollovers, where the 1960s vintage car was restorable, and the 2000s SUV nothing but a little pile of desinigrated plastic and some upholstery remnants. In a duel at freeway speeds between a 1960s/70s 4000 pounder of any vintage, and a 90s - 2005 plastic SUV, given a choice, I'd choose to ride in the tuna boat. People don't think that way. First of all, they think that they will never be in an accident. When shopping for a car, as it is with building a Hot-Rod, people always choose the 'look', with economic factors being a close second, and safety somewhere down the line, right after the stereo system. All safety testing on new cars is done under 40 MPH. Ever wonder why?
And..............there was a head-on between a Lincoln and a Grey-hound bus on I-25 several years ago. Big Dog won.
If you're destined to drown, you'll never hang. But, Put seat belts in your Cadiyacht and use them! Without them the Caddy stops and you don't, until you smack the solid steel dash, steering column, or windshield that is. A '69 Toyota with virtually no or very primitive crumple engineering is no comparison to a 2005 Toyota or Kia with the mentioned crumple zones. Fox News(?) showed a freeway chase with the "fugitive" in a newer Honda driving 80 mph the wrong way on the freeway and he smacked another Honda head on doing about the same speed...7 people in the two cars, no one in either car died! at the scene anyway.. They don't bother with any boring followups, just the exciting "News Entertainment aka Snuff Flick News".
Some trad cars are a little more hazardous to drive than others. All about choices methinks. My roadster has seat belts, 4 point roll bar, fire extinguisher, powerful brakes, radial tires, fuel pump safety switch tied into the oil pressure system which should shut the electric fuel pump off in the event of a wreck. Driving it requires a mindset similar to what a street bike rider would do. In general, watch out for the other guy and pay attention to what's in the rear view mirror. I've almost gotten rear-ended a couple of times and the worst one was when I had to drive out into the intersection after stopping so the idiot behind who thought I was going to run the red light wouldn't hit me. In a nutshell, just be like Bambi on opening day....
.....ummm....also pay attention to what's in front of you! I ploughed my 59 chevy pickup into a van that was stopped on the highway because the guy in front of him was turning left (at a place where normally no one turns left). I didn't get hurt, my truck did. I had my lap belt on.
The reason for this inquiry is that I got a 55 Bel Air 4 door that I am planning on turning into my daily. My mom doesn't really like the idea of me driving a vintage car so I told her I would make it as safe as I could. I figured I'd put in Front disc brakes, 3 point seatbelts, and after researching this board, probably an aftermarket collapsible steering column like the flaming river one. All of this ain't cheap as you all know, but worse case scenario of an accident, I'd like to live and keep on truckin -Cory
Just got off the phone with Rjays (http://www.rjays.com/Flaming_River/laser-cut-01.htm) and I can get the collapsible steering column and adapter plate for 602.85 shipped. That definitely isn't cheap, but for peace of mind it may be worth it. Plus I was looking at other sites (ebay namely) and found out that my original steering column is worth a little cash. There is one closing today and its currently at 102.00, that ain't bad as it can offset my expense towards a new column -Cory
You definitely NEED the discs on that car, the stock brakes are criminal in they're lack of power. Upgrade the rears, too, they're no better. But, you'll never be as safe as if you were in a new car. Technology waits for no man and all. Consider some of the stories already told. If the car is repairable, then who/what took the brunt of the collision force?? Yep, YOU. Today's cars are designed to protect the occupants, which is why most are totalled after what seems like a minor-ish collision. This is GOOD design, keeps you alive. Yeah, you'll have to buy another car, but, you will be ABLE to, which isn't so awful bad, now, is it?? Oh, sure, a 70's Cadillac will take out quite a few cars before it stops, and you MIGHT be relatively unhurt, BUT, you aren't driving a 70's Cad, and your '55 isn't built like one, either. P.S. when you add those seat belts, do NOT anchor them to the frame. If you are in a collision serious enough to move the body on the frame, those seat belts will cut you in two. Instead, get some 1/4" plate, cut in a circle with a hole drilled in the center, and use that to reinforce/spread out the impact. Bolt only through the body. Do NOT weld, this will weaken the area where you want strength. Cosmo
You're on the right track. Keep in mind there are 2 kinds of safety...active and p***ive. P***ive would be 3 point belts, collapsible steering column, and any other piece of hardware that actually helps save your skin if you actually crash. Active is anything that helps you keep an incident from turning into an accident including defensive driving. Dad taught me very well that having the right of way doesn't keep you from being injured and doesn't keep your car from being damaged. Bambi on opening day, I like it! From a hardware standpoint go with the front disk brakes, they're easy to do on the Tri 5s. Also, the original rear brakes don't self adjust, you'll need to climb underneath every 1000 miles or so to adjust them unless you replace the rear end. If you go with a late model Explorer rear end they are the same width as your original but come with disk brakes. The junk yards are full of them because SUV's so often end up upside down. A modern power steering box isn't difficult to do and it allows you to crank in a lot of caster in the alignment which helps steering feel and self centering. A front sway bar makes a big difference in handling since these cars came without. Never underestimate the importance of good tires! There are "kits" to build all of this and a lot more, but people here can help you DIY any or all of the above and things that haven't even been mentioned. My advice for mechanical upgrades in order of importance: 1. Good tires! Without good tires nothing else happens. There are guys here that run bias plies for the look, but they know they're sacrificing the performance of a modern radial for square shoulders on the tires. Not a lot of guys would do it on a daily driver. 2. Front disk brakes. 3. Front sway bar. It's pretty cheap and there are even junk yard options. 4. New steering box. Again options range from cheap to expensive. Yeah, they're hard to park without power steering but that isn't a safety issue. You can install needle bearings in your Pittman arm that will make the steering lighter if you leave it manual and more precise whether or not you change to power. 5. Rear brakes. At some point if you make any power and drive hard you're likely to need a rear end. Take care of it then.
My Dad had a 64 TBird. On a freeway onramp, we were stopped. An 80s celica came speeding down the ramp...smashed right into a little Datsun wagon...that slammed into us. Celica was toast. Datsun's body was pushed up onto its tires front and back. And the 64 TBird? Two cracked reverse light lenses. I go back and forth on this issue. "New" cars brake better...handle better...have more than a "padded dash" as saftey gear. That's why I drive my 65 TBird like it's a damn 65 TBird. It doesn't stop on a dime, so I leave plenty of room ahead. I'm aware of my suroundings at all times--I ride a motorcycle more often than I drive a car/truck. I'm aware of my TBird's limitations and drive within them. Still, my Bird has low-back seats and lap belts. I sure hope some cellphonesoccermom doesn't slam her Excursion into me from behind. Here in CA, I see people driving their new cars like maniacs. Why? Because the better handling, braking, etc. let them get away with it without incident. I see 'em tailgating like there's no tomorrow. And I'm amazed they don't slam right into the back of the car ahead of them. My fiance remarked yesterday that "people should be required to ride a motorcycle and drive a cl***ic before they're allowed to speed around in these new cars." I had to agree.
Thanks for the advice. I was planning on the Power Front discs from a kit that I found here in Az for about 500.00. The rear end has to go anyway as it has 4.11s on it and at 60 mph the motor is screaming. Explorer rear ends huh? Thats the first time I heard that idea. I ***ume you just weld it in? The front sway bar was another first noone's mentioned before. I really do appreciate the advice. The tires I just got at a swap meet, they are goodyear radial regatta's II's (14x6) and they came with the American racing 5 spoke rims that look like cragars. They are magnesium wheels, I believe and are in excellent condition. I picked the wheels/tires up for 450.00 and the tires have plenty of tread left. As for the steering, I was planning on adding a power rack and pinion setup, as I was informed that these are superior to the 605 box. I start my APT 141 ( ALIGNMENT, STEERING, & SUSPENSION) cl*** tomorrow at community college. Growing up in my generation you don't find to many Do it yourselfers, so most of what I know is from books and trial and error. In highschool, the car guys were all what the board refers to as "Gold chainers". I did learn a lot from one friend of mine who introduced me to the hobby, he was a backyard mechanic who was 51. Nice guy but not everything he did was the right way to do things. Thats when I finally said that if I wanna learn how to do this stuff right, go to school. Keep in mind that all my automotive cl***es are purely for this hobby, as my intentions are not to be a technician. The bel air has a crate 350 with 4k on it, and a rebuilt saginaw 4 speed (high gear ratio I believe). Does anyone know what kind've gearing the explorer rear ends have? Thanks a lot for the info! -Cory
Cosmo raises good points on this but I have a couple of things to add. DO NOT use junkyard or used belts. You have no idea what they've been subjected to before you go them. If they've been in a wreck they've been strained. If they're old they may be weak from sunlight exposure or simple aging. Buy a seat belt kit from a reputable dealer. I've used Juliano's 3 point kit in the past and have been very pleased. The plates you use to mount to the floor should be a round circle or have the edges rolled under (and mounted w/ the roll AWAY from the floor) so that you don't have a sharp corner against the floor. In some cases the corner of a square reinforcing plate can just cause the floor to rip open nd the belt becomes useless. A round plate will let the floor wrinkle instead of rip. Most kits come with this type of mounting plate. By the way, welcome to the HAMB and hats off to you for taking safety into consideration. Good luck.
I've driven a 57 Chevy as daily for over a year, and though I have a beater Honda now, my '57 Ford still get's daily action, and loads of miles in all sorts of road/traffic conditions. Though there is certainly truth that crumple zones and energy absorbing structures built into newer autos are safe and effective at saving lives, there is also truth that the shear size of a cl***ic vehicle (or at least post '49 as a generalization) also has it's advantages. The fatality rate of accidents from then till now is certainly higher. Cars didn't have seatbelts, tempered gl***, collapsable steering columns, disc brakes etc. However, there are no statistics on Old vs New fataility rates, which makes me wonder about what would happen should 59 Eldo T bone a Civic. My impression is that though you may be injured in the old car the people in the newer car are pretty much history. As far as your safety upgrades go, you're on the right track, but don't go overboard. Seats belts are the cheapest, most effective insurance you can buy. And for those of us who like to drag, you can't p*** tech without at least a lap belt. Don't forget that people drove the cars daily when they were new, which means that though you can't and shouldn't run up someone's *** and tailgate with drum brakes, if you don't drive like a schmuck and keep your factory equipment in good working order, it will be more then sufficient and serve you well. I think collapsable steering columns and the like are superfluous
I think collapsable steering columns and the like are superfluous[/QUOTE] -Joe, you are definitely right that the collapsible steering column isn't necessary, but at the same time it couldn't hurt. If I install the new steering column, and during my ownership of the vehicle I happen to get into an accident, then my money would be well spent. My wanting the vehicle to be safe mostly stems from an accident I saw yesterday on my way to a junkyard trying to find window's for my bel air. I was driving behind a red S-10 about 6 car lengths behind him, when a late nineties civic tries to p*** him from the left lane and completely smacks into him. The truck spun all over the place into a guardrail. I avoided the truck and civic, but the civic was trying to speed off and flee the scene. I followed the guy about a mile and contacted the police with all relevant information so they could apprehend this degenerate. After this incident, I kept thinking what if that was me in my Bel Air? -Cory
The most important point is knowing the braking and handling limitations of your car. The f-1 front drum brakes on my roadster don't stop like the 4 wheel disc in my Trans Am. So I drive very diffensively and give my self plenty of room to stop and make lane changes. Similar to riding a bike on the street. As far as crumple zones and this and that on new cars. They are engineered into the new cars to make up for lack of girth and structural strenght. Most cars are tiny Jap cars and fold up like a tin can in a collison . What if your leg or arm is caught in that crupple zone ? What if you are larger than the average person the car was designed for? It is just like football. If you are the O-lineman ( 300 lbs) and you collide with a Defensive back ( 180 lbs), guess what " YOU WIN". Give me a land yacht tank anyday or a full size truck. Do the brakes , good belts and drive defensively. You will be fine.
All good advice, but I have a '55 with stock steering and wider radials and the steering effort is light enough that I ditched the plans to upgrade to a 605. I'm running the stock type idler arm.
As hot rod folks, we tend to think the heavy guage metal in our cars make them safer. Unfortunately, the extra gerth is not always the answer. Experance has shown us that the sudden stop is what causes all the problems. That "any object in motion remains in motion until an outside force acts on it" is the jest of the issue. In the old, solid, cars are stopped in a crash, the extra gerth tends to stop them with much less damage then the "new" cars will recieve. The problem is not about the car, its about the people in the car. Just because the car has stopped, the people inside do not, until something stops them. Be that something the seat belt, the dash, the windshield, the steering column, or something outside of the car they happen to come in contact with. Because our (human) bodys are a high % water, things inside it can move. Once we stop the body, say with a seat belt, everything inside our skin still is in motion until it gets stopped. That is the trouble, internal organs become damaged when they hit things like ribs and stuff. Back in the old days, probably as many prople that died in accidents were killed by internal organ damage as were killed from damage by contact with other items. Until the advent of seat belts, this fact probably wasn't well known. After the forced use of seat belts, the discovery was made that some kind of a "cushin" needed to be built into the cars to reduce the shock to the human body. This is where the "crumple zone" came from. The crumple zones saved lives. One of the draw backs from the crumple zone was the cars recieved more damage in less severe accidents. Most of the car buying population only noticed the more damage and higher repair costs, not the fact more lives were saved. The population may not have noticed, but the insurance companies that were paying out less life insurance death bennifits soon figured out safer cars resulted in more money for them. Replacing cars was cheaper then paying death benifits. The process has continued to evolve. That said, When the Cady crashes into the side of the Toyota, would I rather be in the Toy? No. Now if that Toy had side air bags.... Now, if the Toy crashes into the side of the Cady, toss up. Now have that Cady crashed in the side by a Hummer, I'll p*** on the Cady ride, thanks. Want to go head on Cady vs Toy? Depends on what year the Cady is, and how new the Toy is. A 50s Cady, and a 2005 Toy, give me the Toy. A 70s Cady, 90s Toy, I'll take the Cady. All that said, what do I drive? A 54 Dodge pickup and a 50 Dodge pickup, but both pickups are updated to 80s tech. Our "good" car is a 2004 PT Cruiser. Gene
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