I've read that the original radiators work fine with a 350, but I've never seen HP ratings. My problem is that I've built a 500 HP (dyno'd) 383 that I would like to use in my 54 Bel Air. I've gotten quotes on having my original radiator re-cored to a 3 row, but I'm still concerned this won't be enough. I was thinking a 3 row, with an electric fan that pushed around 3,000 cfm would be sufficient. Am I way off? Thanks for any advice.
I had a stout 377 that i used a 70 chev 454 4x4 3/4 t radiator in my monte carlo. it was stock width but thicker, cooled much better than the one for the 305. If you get a dimension for that, compare the volume to stock + extra thickness of three row, it could give you ballpark. Surely there is a aluminum one out there that could fit the criteria. Personally thats what I would want, better to go overboard and be sure. and pull fans seem to work better than push fans
Thanks Sled. The radiator that was in my 454 suburban was almost twice the size and was a 3 row. This is why I'm kinda worried. I think you're right about the aluminum, I'm just gonna have to bite the bullet and save up for one. Anyone else?
i had the stock 6 cyl radiator for my 59 recored as a high efficiency 3 core or 4 core. it cools my 350 just fine. cheaper than aluminum, too
That's what I've heard. The "problem" is that a typical 350 puts out around 300HP, I'm at 497 with 470 ftlbs of torque. I really don't want to spend $275 to get mine re-cored if I'm going to then have to spend $5-600 on a new unit because mine won't cool that much power. By the same token, I really don't want to run out and spend that much on a new radiator (but I will if it's the only choice).
For the SIZE limits, i don't think anything outside an aluminum radiator will do it. They're not too expensive, and your car's common enough for several people to make a bolt in. I did a 350 tripower deal for a friends 54 TRUCK and got a really nice bolt in for $375 from Air Mobile (623 931 0135), and that ****ing thing's always right on the 160 thermostat (fan is 1 inch from core and no shroud). Before you frown at the price, consider this (MANY of my customers do this). You'll do a 3 row for about $200, and it won't work. Then you'll **** around with bigger (noisier) electric fans $150+, and that won't work. "THEN" you reluctantly spend the money on the aluminum and have 2 useless fans and a useless 3 row radiator that i'll offer you $20 credit towards fixing your car. I scotch padded mine and painted it black in my 51 Ford G***er (with big Pontiac) to look traditional. 200 miles up the coast to Paso and it was welded on 120 degrees until i cut inland where it got to 150 up a 5 mile grade.
Thanks Groucho, that's why I'm asking before spending the $$. $375 I can live with, it was the $600+ I saw on Chevs of the 40's that got me scared. I'll call the # you listed and see what they say. Thanks!
that sounds pretty good. jegs lists one for 55-57 for $499. Griffin makes one but I can't find a price, what good is a website if there are no prices?
The issue is not necessarily the size or materials... The capacity of the radiator is driven by the heat transfer surface area, and thats a function of fin count and # of coils (cores). To get the job done, you want to run AT least a 3 core, or maybe even a four core unit - and you'll want the highest fin count you can find. As for heat dissipation - remember that a motor puts about a third of it's heat to the pavement in the form of work, a third out the tailpipe, and a third to the radiator. The overall dimensions of the stocker radiator are fine - you just need some more fins and cores to dissipate the extra heat generated by the stroker. Finally - I'd strongly recommend an electric water pump. The place where most cooling systems fall down isn't when the motor is poppin' along at 3 grand - it's during the stop and go of a cruise nite. I spend a good part of Dream Cruise pushin' big inch motors off the street on account of the system overheated at idle. Reason for this has less to do with the fan and more to do with the water pump; at idle the pump makes a fraction of the flow required to maintain effective heat transfer within the block. An electric pump maintains a constant flow - and draws less HP at WOT. As far as pusher vs puller fans - the fan has to be designed to push or pull; some manufacturers advertise their fans as being capable of both - but they WILL be less efficient in one direction than the other. The fans has to be shrouded to be effective, too...otherwise the heat transfer area (at idle) is a function of the swept area of the radiator. Damn. I rambled again. Hope this helps.
Very good points. The way I saw it was that br*** (and whatever else they're made of) worked "fine" for the last 50 years, why would I "need" aluminum? On the otherhand, I have heard that aluminum dissipates better and is lighter (not really a concern for this car). I think I'll try running over to Danchuck and comparing their 4 row for a tri 5 to my stock. If it looks close I might just buy it from them ("only" $345).
Aluminum is a more efficient conductor of heat than copper, br***. An aluminum radiator with two large rows will outperform a 3 core with the same overall dimension. size x conductivity = cooling capacity.
Looks like the Danchuck radiator is actually a US Radiator, anyone ever have problems with these? BTW Groucho, you got a steal on that radiator. I just called Air Mobile and they want $550 to build me one and it will take 8 weeks
You missed the the important point - fin count and cores. Yes - if all things remain equal, the aluminum unit will do a better job, but don't expect a low fin count or two row aluminum job to do the work of a three row high fin unit. The materials are no subs***ute for lack of heat transfer surface area.
I used a 90 Caprice radiator and air conditioning condensor in the 54 I am building for my wife. I mounted them just ahead of the original radiator on the front of the core support just behind the grille. It is a very tight fit but it will work. I made my own shroud and I am using the belt driven engine fan. I have not driven the car yet but it should work fine. If you are interested I can post a picture later. John
I used the "US Radiator" V8 style in my 54 and Im still having cooling issues , Im going to replace the water pump with a more hi-performace kind and try to fit a puller fan in there, my 14 inch 2300 cfm pusher doesnt cut it.
Yeah, I noticed the 54 radiator from them only goes to a 3 row, but the 55-57 goes up to a 4 row (looks like it shims forward). Plus there are a ton of different fan options. I work near Danchuck, I'm gonna try to head over there before the end of the day and compare theirs to my stock. I'll let anyone that's interested know how it all works out.
There's something about "fin to tube" contact that comes in to play. SUPPOSEDLY, the bigger tube of the aluminum radiator allows MORE of that contact than copper-br***. The reason copper-br*** tubes aren't as wide, is they are thought to be weaker and will not contain the pressure at the wider dimension. This is what i hear. Now, what i KNOW is that in the several dozen times i've switched to aluminun, the results were dramatic (20-40 degrees)! Regardless of the reason, it's the results that speak for themselves
Their website claims only a few degrees improvement from copper to aluminum. Wonder which one they sell?
i have a 51 chevy with a 350 with camel hump heads, and to cool it i have a griffin radiator 3 row, but i still overheat when in traffic. driving in town is about 170, freeway is 160, but i had major clearance issues because i have a camaro clip and forward power steering box. i'm going to have to try that electric water pump, because i'm not looking forward to that big grade before paso!!!!!
Okay... I've been schooled in thermodynamics, and used to make a living sizing heat exchange equipment. My brother runs the Modine OEM office here in Detroit and makes a living off of designing this stuff for current applications. If he weren't off burying his mother-in-law this week, I'd get him to run a couple of sizing apps to give y'all the 'U' value of different HX configs for comparison purposes. They've even managed to figure out how to build a single-core unit for the new hemi - no mean feat! Truth is - the reason aluminum radiators work better is because more $$ and more time has gone into the design of the units, as the aluminum press-fit HX is cheaper to produce than a furnace-brazed copper/br*** unit. New units even have plastic (!?) headers that are clamped onto the HX - go figure. In the heat transfer biz, the value is in the engineering. The more efficient you make the unit (read higher 'U' value), the smaller the unit can be and still transfer the same amount of heat. Since aluminum is relatively cheap these days, the $$ went into improving this type of HX for automotive apps - and - it's lighter, too! Current aluminum designs have static mixers built into the waterside of the unit, too. This increases the Reynold's number (turbulence) of the unit, improving overall efficiency, which makes it more effective. Since the advent of the first automotive tube-type radiators, heat transfer equipment efficiency has improved by a factor of four - that is to say that the same amount of heat transfer occurs with one fourth the available heat transfer area.
So someone here must have a V8 in a 49-54 chevy and its got run ok and not over heat. I dont want to spend another 600.00 bucks on an alum radiator after I Spent 400.00 on the one Ive only used for 4 months, or panic everytime traffic gets heavy, thats no fun. Id like to be able to drive all over and not worry.
Here's what happens when you work an engine hard and you don't have enough water flow: Water flow is a function of the pump affinity laws, which make the statement that flow varies as a cube of HP or some silly thing like that. Youse guys can google that - it will pop up pretty readily. Anyway, a typical engine water pump is designed to deliver *about* 55 GPM at cruising speeds. When you drop to an idle in stop and go, the water flow rate in the block drops below the critical 1.5 feet/second needed to entrain gas - either in the form of air or steam. Hot spots at the exhaust valve pocket and/or port begin to generate steam - this begins to puddle out in high spots in the motor, thus begatting more hot spots, as steam is a lousy conductor of heat. Pressure builds in the system, eventually building up to the magic 250 degree point - 250 degree steam makes 30# absolute pressure - enough to pop the cap on yer 15# radiator, as atmospheric pressure is pushing down with 14.7#, more or less. By switching to an electric pump, you eliminate the drop in water velocity, and the heat transfer system operates at cruising conditions - even when you're stopped - ***uming you have an electric fan to go with it!
If you guys can wait a week - I'll have my brother run a couple of radiator simulations using the 425 HP 5.7 liter Hemi as a guide to tell you what size unit works - and what doesn't. He'll be back from leave next monday.
I think Im also going to powdercoat the exhaust with some jet coat stuff, try to keep the engine compartment a little cooler. I have a 2 into 1 exhaust set up and I think it builds up a lot of heat.
We keep talking about size and volume and efficiency of radiators, but none of that means squat if you're not getting enough air flow over it. That means air hasta get to the front, thru it, out the back, then outta the engine compartment. So make sure that V8 ain't blocking too much of the air's path ('specially if it's a big block) down under the toe boards and out the rear edges of the inner fenders. Also, make sure whatever fan you have (mechanical or electric) will move some serious volume of air across those fins & tubes. Personally, I'm a fan (sorry for the pun) of fixed-blade mechanical (OEM-style) fans. If you have some halfway decent fabrication skills, check out the aluminum crossflow radiators at Summit or your local race car shop. They have "generic" sized deals that you can usually adapt to most cars made since the end of WWII. Since these are more "universal", they cost about half of what the "specific application" ones do. They don't look trad, but keep your hood closed and I won't snitch on you. Just make sure you keep all the factory-designed sheet metal for deflecting air to the radiator... and that the air HAS to got THROUGH the radiator instead of around it. I have a 52 Chevy with a "warm" 350 that I drive every day. I had one of the NASCAR shops custom-build me an aluminum vertical flow radiator (cheaper for me than re-coring my old one). For some reason, ambient air temp is everything on this car. If it's below 60 degrees or so outside, I can drive 30 miles to work (avg. about 65-70 mph), and the temp gauge may not even get to 160 degrees. (180 t-stat). But if it's 85+ degrees outside, when I come to a stop after driving on the hwy, the temp will go up... if it's over 100 outside, then the needle will climb fast to about 220 (never seen it go past that, but I'd be concerned if I sat very long). I do have an a/c condenser and I never had any probs till I put that stupid thing on. And I recently got rid of the ****** cooler since I switched to a manual ******, so we'll see this summer if that does any good... Next step is to go with a real Vintage Air condenser...
i know this is sort of apples to oranges. back in the day i ran a 327 in a stock radiatored 50 chev coupe. could not make it run over 170. riverrat
Hey Guys, I work with heat transfer everyday. There are 2 sides to the equation: gpm and cfm. To properly exchange heat you must have the proper cubic feet per minute if airflow and at the same time have the proper gallons per minute. I don't know much about radiators, I'm currently learning. But the 2 very good points brought up in this thread must work togeather. So my GUESS is that I will look into the electric pump with a pull through electric fan. The air outside the engine compartment is generally cooler than the air being pulled across the engine then through the rad. Also the first pump affinity law states that gpm is in direct relation to rpm. But the hp law is correct.
Here is the picture of the radiator that I mentioned earlier. It is a crossflow design from a 90 Caprice. There are many other models of similiar size with 3 and 4 row cores. Not shown is the upper cover that closes off the top so that all the inlet air must go through the radiator.
My buddy that owns a radiator shop preaches much that you've been saying Chuckspeed, except the "begat" part, sounds too biblical for him. He also says that it's possible to pump the water through the radiator too fast to cool it too. What do you think on this?
The stock style 49-54 chevy radiator has the top inlet in the center vs. aftermarket radiators have the top inlet on the far left. Therefore more cooling since the water will more likely travel through all the fins not just half of them. I too have been shopping for a radiator for a 50 chevy with a hot sbc (almost 400hp). Please post if you find a good aluminum radiator for the application. I was considering adapting a summit one, but there prices are up there as well. Most of the ones listed on summit are 2 row, hows does this translate to a 4 core? Listing of alum radiators on summit: http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=radiator&x=0&y=0&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp Corvette replacement: http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&autofilter=1&part=AFC%2D80265N%2D1&N=115+314152+4294908216&autoview=sku Chevys of the 40s has some but there in the 600 range as well. http://www.chevsofthe40s.com/search.l***o?Dept=Car&Group=Cooling%2c%20Heating The danchuk 4 core for a 55 seems like a good deal at $375.00
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