Hey gang - I recently bought a '60s-style altered roadster that I want to get ready in time for this year's HAMB drags. It's a tubular ch***is (yes...I know that disqualifies it as an HA/GR) that needs a virtual rebuild because it's been worked on by one or more "hacks" along the way, and contains some VERY gnarly welding. It looks like the easiest way to get rid of the bad spots will be to start over. My son owns a welding/fabrication business, so welding talent (his, not mine - LOL), and equipment aren't a problem, but we're wondering about the best method for notching - or "fishmouthing" as I've heard it called - the tube ends for a close fit before welding. This would include regular 90-degree "**** welds" as well as angles for where crossbraces meet inside corners, etc. Tubes will be 3/4", 1 1/2", and 2". I've seen ads for the "Joint-Jigger" type devices that use hole saws, and I know grinding would be another option. Just wondered if any of you with experience with those, or other methods, and might have advice about how to go. We'll be doing quite a bit of pipe (basically building a new ch***is) so we need a technique that is practical for fairly high-volume work. Thanks in advance for your help and advice.
Since you'll be doing quite a bit and it sounds like your son could use it for his business, you should buy an actual "tubing notcher". Or since it looks just like a fancy clamp while you run a hole saw on your drill press into it, make your own.
Stan, don't **** with those holesaw tubing notchers. I have seen the light. Go to Williams Lo-Buck tools. I have one of their notchers and I swear by it. It is so easy.....I loan it to all my buddies that have the old holesaw types. You can notch in seconds.
I have one of the hole saw/drill press type devices (Harbor Freight $30), and I must say it does a pretty decent job. I was skeptical... The quality is, well, really Chinese. But, while I'm sure a dedicated tubing notcher will do a far superior job, I find it completely adequate for my basic, low volume needs. The cuts will sometimes be a bit rough, but about 2 seconds on the griding wheel fixes them right up.
I have a williams one and was not a fan of it because it only notches in one size and one angle. a good hole saw one has a better fit and can do smaller tubing. You need to get one that the shaft uses bearings instead of the cheaper one that just has a bushing
With a bit of practice you can fishmouth tubes with a band saw. I used to use a Williams Lo-Buck notcher but found that it was only real good at 90 degree fits. When it came to angled joints it fell short. Longacre sells a contour gauge that works well to mark the cut lines on the tube needing to be cut. It wraps around that tube and the needles **** up against the tube you are welding it to. They come in various sizes (diameters) too. It's called "pipemaster" : http://www.longacreracing.com/search.asp
Hole saw is your best option. A joint jigger is a good idea although I've never owned one. I have used one and love it. I have an adjustadle angle on the table on my drill press that will work fine for short pieces but a joint jigger or something like it is the only way to go on a long piece.
I use the hole saw type. I started out with a Harbor Freight tool but found that it was just "ok", the small diameter shaft didn't allow for nice clean cuts. It did alot of notches until I got the good made in the USA device with a much larger shaft and huge bearings. Now we get good cuts. If I built ch***is for a living instead of just hot rods in the garage I'd get a real notcher.
A hole saw is a real notcher, if they were good enough for Little John they are good enough for me. I guess if i owned a ch***is manufacturing company I'd buy a CNC machine, but as long as you're building one off ch***is there is no need to invest a couple of hundred K in tooling.
I personally chose this holesaw style notcher from Pro-Tools: http://www.pro-tools.com/hsn500.htm I has served me extremely well, and is build very beefy. The shaft is a 1" shaft, and has zerk(zerc?) fittings to grease it up. It does 90 degree cuts, and is adjustable for any angle that you would need. Yeah, I'd love to have a machine-shop style notcher, but for $200 vs. thousands, this one has served me very well
''Ye Olde Joint Jigger'' I have personally used one for years and have excellent luck with it! It might not be the fastest way, but a tool is only as good as the guy running it! Use your head when cutting and not your arm and it will produce a very nice cut.
I don't profess to be any sort of expert here, but I have notched a tube or two using a Holesaw Notcher mounted to a drill press. Make no mistake - these WILL produce near perfect results IF you get a decent one. I bought a cheapy (99 bucks at the time) from Speedway motors and while it definitely is a little slow at times it has done EVERYTHING I have asked of it. Mine is the SLEEVE bearing one - I lube it EVERYTIME I drag it out - it's as good as the day I got it. Are there BETTER notchers - absolutely, but for the money I can't think of anything that a homeguy can get that will even get CLOSE to the results these holesaw notchers will produce. The Williams one looks pretty neat (and I'd LOVE to have one!!!) and I bet it's 10 times faster than mine but I can see just by looking at it that it can't be near as versatile. Liek with everythign in life there's compromises - that said, holesaw notchers are tough to beat for the money - especially for a guy not doing this 8 hours a day - although I have used mine that much at times!!!! Here's what I used mine for - I did EVERY notch with my hole saw notcher - no complaints.
I use a Blue Mole hole saw mandrel in my drill press I made a jig/clamp from angle iron to set the tube in.I subsituted a solid rod for the pilot drill that p***ed through the jig baseplate plate in a oillite bushing slide your tube up against the thru shaft and drill through the tube nice clean notch !built a few stock car cages with this setup.built it with s****s on hand other than the saw mandrel and saw blades wish I knew how to post drawings because the hole thing "pun intended"took about an hour to fab up
I work at trick-tools-com and we offer several typ[es of notchers from mid to high in price depends on how good you want in joint jiggers from what i have seen on them they are as good as the hole saw you put in it cheap hole saws will bend and get oblonged then it will make a sloppy cut the cheaper models will wear out in the shaft then get sloppy ours have replaceable bushings biut they all work. we also have what is called PIPE MASTER it slips over the a s****e piece of pipe and you put at the angle that you want then slide it over the new pipe and will transfer the cope[fishmouth] onto your new pipe then cut it out with cut of saw or mill or the joint jigger check out the web site TRICK-TOOLS.com this will explain better or give us a call
I use a Mill and hole saws and it works fine, BUT my old car owner had a Mittler Bros notcher and it was great, if you are in a fab shop and going to cope a LOT of tubing it's the only way to go
Do you have a vertical mill?A buddy of mine that builds a lot of roll cagesuses his Bridgeport and a "roughing mill" or " roughing cutter"I believe he calls it.Nice joints.very repeatable.
http://www.ihpva.org/tools/ go down and click on tubemiter. Somebody posted it here a while ago. I havent used it yet, but it looks really cool.
I used to build street stock cages, and notched all the tubing with a chop saw, and a drum sander. It takes two cuts to notch on a chop saw, and 30 seconds on the drum sander.
ok you gotta show me that notcher since i still am using the holesaw type with no problems at all , if its easier than that i need to look at getting one.. where is the info on it??? sam
I have a hole saw one, but don't use it anymore. Chopsaw, and a grinder to dial it in. SOOOO MUCH faster and nicer!!!!
Just the same here, my friend's been doin it for the 12 years he's been doin roll cages. P***es SCCA tech with flying colors. 2 cuts to make it look like a point, but when turned sideways, it is a notch.
We have a big$ Mittler Bros notcher at work. While it has it's place I prefer the bandsaw method. Chopsaw just as well but don't like sparks. I have a vertical bandsaw here at home. I can notch a tube to perfect fit in minutes. Look at the tube...it's already round. A straight cut in the right place yields a perfect notch every time. I'm a little shocked that only 3 out of 21 responses indicate this. I love when I'm doing a cage at work with 2 of us doing it. The one guy grabs up the notcher and I walk to the bandsaw. I'm done and he's still figuring angles and indexing. Oh well. A 4" Motabo style grinder also goes a long way toward perfect fits. Good luck with your choice. Looks like a fun project.
Exactly!!! That the exact reason I don't use the nothcer I have. Takes too much time! And will still end up off a few degrees. I need a bandsaw, but until then Chopsaw it is.
I built the whole Fly cage with nothing but the Williams Lo Bock notcher. I could whack out an angle in seconds. If you need more on one side ya just nip a little more on that side. I guess I shouldn't have said that the miter/ holesaw wouldn't work, it's just that I like this one better. I may still opt for the holesaw method if I had a complex joint to build. Who knows.... Sam, come by and check it out.
The comments suggesting other methods are FASTER than holesaw notching - I can believe, but the comments suggesting a BETTER fit I have a hard time believing. And while I also agree that a notch is simply a Straight cut - the angle of that cut isn't exactly intuitive - sure you guy sthat do this everyday probably have it down to a science, but I know when I tried that method it was slower for me than just grabbing the holesaw notcher. I will aslo say this about the holesaw notcher - when I first got it I too goofed around measuring angles and transferring them to the notcher - but soon I learned that the quickest method (for me) was to throw away all the protractors and simply lay the tube to be notched in place and mark (with a sharpie) the top and bottom of each notch (eyeballed it). I'd then drag it over to the notcher and eyeball it again - you might be surprised how accurate you can get with just a little practice. The problem with grinders - hand held or chop saw is that they generate a lot of dust - I breathe in enough **** and try to minimize that so I use those sparingly. Yes yes - I am a wimp.
My opinion is buy the best notcher that is practical and you can afford. I personally have used mills, hole saws, belt sander style and clip copers. I have built many tubular sandrail ch***is and my preference would be the hole saw style, the clip type coper is good as a secondary for the 90* stuff. But again if the need is there buy the best you can afford you won't be sorry. FWIW I never considered it to take that long with the hole saw and I agree that when you're done the fits are very good, and no matter what anyone says grinding any cope is a grind and check (repeat until it's right) method at best and I personally think it takes longer. I think what you will find is that you will be doing some grinding, and improvising along the way just like any fabrication project.
make all welds as if your life depended on them (it will!) and remember UCMJ Art.32A "Penetration, however slight gives maximum delight" <grin>
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