I have an opportunity to get a 1950 Plymouth 2 door sedan that is very cool, stock 6 cylinder 3 speed. I can also score a 1954 Dodge Red Ram 241 Hemi. Powerflyte Automatic. Is this an easy swap? does the Dodge fit without fabrication, either bolting up to the Plymouth 3 speed, or leaving the automatic. I would do either, whichever is easier. Or am I just dreaming?! I did have a 1954 Dodge Red Ram Hemi in '69 so I have a soft spot and the Plymouth seems very like the Dodge, only lighter so I think this would be a marriage made in heaven but I've never seen one. Anybody???
I put a small block chevy in one for a customer. Keeping the inner fender wells was the big issue and it was TIGHT. If he would have let me make new ones, I could have fit a much bigger motor in there.
Easiest with no fabrication? Wow that's never gonna happen on this site! I would be more worried about the front sump oil pan hitting the front suspension and after that I would be checking to see where the motor mount or mounts are going to go.........................................
I put a '55 a Dodge 270 Hemi in a '53 Plymouth in 1962. The engine came from a stick shift car and the '55 and later models had a shorter bell housing than '53/'54 models and no frame /crossmember mods were required. The stock '53 transmission is the same as '55 and bolted up with no changes. The starter motor did interfere with the steering box. I narrowed the frame by half where the steering box is mounted, moving the steering outboard about 1 1/2". I then added a thick gusset plate to the outside of the frame rail to regain the strength of the rail. The stock exhaust manifolds fit ok. The original V8 front mount fit the frame as did the rear mount pads. There was no room for the column shift linkage however, so a simple floor shift conversion was fabricated. I understand you want to use the Power Flite automatic and that will probably require changes in the crossmember behind the engine. Shift linkage should be even easier to deal with on the automatic. The '49/'52 Plymouths have narrower sheet metal inner fenders and I would expect some minor clearance issues there. While the appearance of a Hemi V8 looks great under the hood, I would caution you to have modest expectations regarding performance gains. There IS some performance improvement, of course, but the 241 is rated at 140 hp and is only 24 cubic inches larger than your six cylinder. Ray
After reading the article, which was amazing in detail,and reading Ray's story if I do get the car, hopping up the six might be the more efficient and expeditious thing to do! Thanks again guys!
Tony, An easier and good performing swap would be the Chrysler Spitfire 265 cubic inch six from around '51 or '52 thru '54 Chrysler Windsors. It is about 2 1/2" longer than the Plymouth six and requires the radiator to be moved forward a bit, but tha is fairly simple. It also does require a minor notching on the backside of the front crossmember for pan clearance. I put one of those in a '51 Dodge some years back and was quite pleased with it. You can use all the stock driveline components of the Plymouth, bellhousing, transmission etc., no issues with steering etc. strong engine with lots of torque. The earlier Chryler six is ok too, but is 250 cubic inches. Ray
I think I have enough info. I kind of knew I was dreaming! I'm more the kind of guy that likes to jump in and drive, not the kind that enjoys the wrenching! The car is just cool and sometimes I think like a kid! If the car comes my way, hopping up what's there makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks again guys. There is an amazing wealth of info here!
Read post #6 above. The Chrysler/Dodge 354 is longer, wider and heavier than the Dodge hemi. What I didn't say in my post is, that prior to installing the Dodge 270, I had installed a '51 331 Chrysler in the '53 Plymouth and found it very unsatisfactory because of it's weight. But everything I had to do for the Dodge was necessary with the Chrysler, only worse. One advantage you would have with the 354 is the rear of the block is much shorter where the bellhousing attaches. You have greater choices of transmissions and less firewall/floor clearance issues. The radiator would have to go forward. The Dodge (passenger car/pickup) engines are more swap friendly. Ray
I'll add my 3¢ (inflation ya know)... The 331 truck engine is not a good candidate in as-is form, but will require some small changes to make it 'look' like a pass car engine. The 'truck' parts are very bulky. Although Ray had success in modifying the frame to make things fit I'd be hesitant. It is easier to move the engine to the pass side a wee bit to clear the steering. Plenty of folks have even swapped to a R&P. Depending on which trans you decide to use some trans/adapters utilize a pass-side starter. As to weight, the original L6 is not a light weight engine so a fresh set of coil springs should alleviate any driving/steering concerns. The Hamb has a huge collection of project threads and it can be daunting to search for specific info but you may get lucky with some of the sub-forums that focus on the early Dodge/Plymouth. Troll through this list: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/categories/social-forums.86/ The www.p15-d24.com is also a good site for some info. Bottom line is that there have been many swaps in the pre-V8 bodies. Know your limitations. .
Hey guys, I'm passed needing any more info. The deal is dead. Thanks to all. I'm just a sucker for the 241 Red Ram because I had a '54 Dodge Royal back in the 60's and I always liked the way they ran and reved! Maybe if I ever get the ambition, I'll put one in my '31 avitar car! Thanks again, there is always an amazing amount of info here!
so you ain't gettin the car or the engine?....oh well, ...sketchin up some ideas for my 50 Plymouth, my next project,...which way should I go?
Phttttttt keep it all Plymouth. The red ram is the easiest swap into anything of all the Hemis, it is dimensionally smaller. I don't know that it is a no fab swap but it shouldn't be a big deal to stuff it in there. I haven't been to New York for a long time, maybe wouldn't mind spending a week with a friend. It may have sell something for gas money.
Like 'em both but the gasser better. I'm a "wheel guy". I see an early '60's gasser but the mags look a little to "new". To me it needs Pie crust M&H whitewall slicks no bigger than 9:00-15 rears on narrower Torque-Thrusts and maybe even 10 spoke pin drives in fronts, with real skinnies, like 6:00-15. Also needs to have the wheel-well headders dump behind the front wheel wells. BTW, that rear tube bumper could be filled with cement! Just my $.02, I am stuck in tradition!
Beaner jumped my reply, this is for #16! BTW Beaner, my part of this thread is gone, but it seems to be turning into an early Plymouth thread! Thanks for your encouragement!
I sometimes respond without reading an entire thread. OK most times. I would encourage you to get the red ram and stick it in your avatar but then it would be evolving. Hot rods morphing is way to traditional for this site.
Sleeper. And I'll get there. I get 40 MPG on the scoot or maybe the model A will be on the road and I'll trailer the scoot like all responsible citizens do.
This thread is morphing all over the place. Tradition doesn't have to be "static" in my humble opinion. Think of it this way.... My '31 was built in say '52, with the Merc flathead. After a few years, say '58, the '54 Royal with the Red Ram was wrecked and the engine ecame available. Old Tony scarfed it up and put it in his '31. This would be traditional at a slightly later date. Also, if I was doing it then I would have done it not thinking about all of us waiting 55 years to call it "traditional" Am I wrong?
Old hot rods were never static, magazines are static so if we are learning from reading magazines we believe that they were built and never changed. Hot rods always were in a state of flux and should be constantly in a state of flux. Improvements happened over time, sometimes it was in keeping with trends other times it was just to go faster or handle better as the builder gained experience or money. There is a deuce sedan on one of the TRJs that they had old pics and were able to tell the story on it, it was originally just modified with the stock flathead in it, then it got a rocket then it got a super charged y block. It finally got freshened and painted in black lacquer and stopped morphing. Or take a look at the X-Sonic Corvette and all the changes it made, sometimes it got painted and showed then a week later it was painted again for another show. Maybe the changes are not major, maybe it started out with a later mill stuffed in it stock and steelies. Later the mill got 2 fours or headers, the steelies became magnesium. maybe it got painted or an interior. Photos of cars are static but the cars themselves should never be that way. I could probably give lots of examples from back in the day, or a more modern example if you will. The Ravens '27 roadster. It was originally built with 16" wires and made to be a car that had just been upgraded with a valve in head from a car that was already built. Like a post war flatty powered roadster that got a mid '50s mill. Well it wasn't fast enough so it got a hotter mill, then the 16" wires and bias plys wouldn't do well enough so it got upgraded to chrome reverse and narrow craigers 15" gave better tire choices. It wasn't stopping well enough so the '40 ford brakes got upgraded to 45 fin Buicks with Lincoln backing plates, hotter ignition that same year. The rear split bones were flexing really bad so it got upgraded to ladder bars and so it continues to morph as time and money allow. That's just hot rodding 101. OH the red ram is waiting so is the coupe or maybe we can build a new one. That may take more then a week though.
The Jalopy Journal
