1952-59 Ford Pertronix on '54 239 Y-Block

Is a Pertronix worth it on a stock '54 239? I just rebuilt my carb, adjusted valves, changed intake and exhaust gaskets, new plugs, new points, cap, rotor, new fluids and filters. Waiting on new plug wires to show up and it should be ready to light off. The carb is a '55-'56 "ECG" Holley 2110, and stock '54 Load-o-Matic distributor. 12V conversion and new single into dual exhaust with gl*** packs are the only modifications. Automatic slush box.


I just bought the car and only drove it 50 feet. Before I did all the stuff mentioned, it ran like *** during those 50 feet, as well as running bad in the driveway. Sporadic popping out of the exhaust, and had absolutely no power, I mean none, it just barely made it up my driveway. 6 of the recent NGK plugs were covered in black soot. Vacuum gauge showed a steady 17, but timing was a bit retarded so that explains the semi-low vacuum as well some of the power loss and popping. If the valves were an issue the vacuum gauge would have shown it, and when I adjusted them they were pretty close to spec. Motor was 'said' to have been rebuilt ~8k miles ago, and under the valve covers and valley pan pretty much confirms this by how clean it was, but who knows.


I figured it was a combination of timing and a carb issue, due the fact that the carb was improperly rebuilt by the previous owner. They left out the small gaskets under the nozzles so it was surely running rich, which also explains the fouled plugs, low power, etc etc. The crossover pipe also had a rust out at the seam in the middle, and no gaskets at the manifolds so it was leaking like hell. I welded in a patch over the rusted spot, and made 3 new gaskets because nobody had them in stock within 500 miles.


I have everything back together, and I'm just waiting on a set of wires to show up. I almost put the old Accel 8mm wires back on just to see if all my work paid off, but I have a long history of issues with Accel wires causing problems, so I figured I'd be patient and wait til next week to fire it up and tune it with a quality set of wires.


It just got me thinking about the later ECG carb and Load-o-Matic, that maybe I should ditch the points and run a Pertronix kit. I've had some luck with them in the past, but not sure if it's worth spending the money on. I'm not looking for more power, just want it to run right and be as reliable as it can be. Would a later model distributor or aftermarket distributor be a viable alternative for use with the stock 2bbl? I really don't want to dump any more money into the 239 unless it's a sure thing, because I'm planning a 302/AOD swap in the future, but only if the 239 takes a turn for the worse.

Just trying to get this thing to run smooth, so I can move on to the fun stuff like frenching, shaving, nosing, decking, etc etc.

Thanks

 

I got impatient today and went ahead and hooked up the old accel plug wires.

It still runs a little rough, but much better than it did before. Adjusting the timing cleared up a lot of the misfiring and weak throttle response, and brought the vacuum up to a steady 18-1/2", but it still has some hesitation, and an occasional, but much quieter, random pop out of the exhaust.

I'm really leaning towards the ignition or distributor being the culprit.

 

One thing a lot of guys never think about is replacing the vacuum advance canister,it may well be your culprit if the diaphragm is weak or collapsed you will get little or no advance.

 

I agree with Jeff--the vacuum canister would be your next approached---having said that, I will tell you that I always convert my points ignitions to some type of electronic ignition system. A points system will never compete with electronic ignition on throttle response, idle smoothness, fuel efficiency, timing consistency, horsepower, and on and on. In my opinion, it's the cheapest way to get improved performance on any engine. It's the first thing I do on a rebuild.

 

I'd check for vacuum leaks. The easiest way is to carefully spray some carb cleaner around any and all the normal places where a leak could occur, while the engine is running. If the idle changes, you've found a leak.

 

As Don said, OR, try a propane bottle. Less mess.
I'm also a big believer in the electronic ignition and Pertronix in particular.
I have them on both Flatheads and my 56 Ford

 

I'm running a "Flamethrower" coil and a "Stock-Look" distributor from Pertronix that has the "Ignitor"electronic insides on the 302 in my 54 Ford. I really like it so far.

My 302 literally jumps to life when I turn the key. It doesn't even make a full revolution.

However, when an electronic ignition fails, it usually fails completely (whereas points will give you some warning). So, I am going to pick up an extra Ignitor set before I take it on a long trip.

 

Swapped points and condenser again today, adjusted timing again, played with carb adjustments again. I took the vacuum advance canister off and inspected it, all is well, holds pressure and suction with Mighty Vac. I also tested the coil and it is well within spec. I've already checked for vacuum leaks using propane as well as carb cleaner, it's all sealed up, no leaks. The last thing for me to replace is the plug wire set which should be here in a day or two. I doubt that's the issue.

A friend of mine bent a valve in his daily driven '58 f100 292 a while back, and will be swapping in a fresh 292 that he has.

Can I simply take the 2bbl, distributor, and oil pump off his old 292 and put them into my 239? I think I just need to swap the distributor gears so that the 239 gear is on the 292 distributor...right? Is there anything else needed or am I missing something? My brain is rattled trying to figure out this stupid issue, it has never taken me this long to get a ****py running engine tuned, and I'm really starting to scour craigslist for a donor 302/AOD.

 

You may want to give this a read since you have already upgraded the parts in your distributor: http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/ignition-articles/495460-running-points-cd-ignition-box.html

 

Thanks Jeff, I did look at that as an upgrade, but its not going to fix this initial problem, and for now I just want it to run right before I throw more money at it. This is why I'm considering the later distributor swap, so I can basically run any carb, and eliminate the loadomatic in the process. I'll look more into it when I get off work.

 

I converted to transistorized ignition a while back. It is a night/day situation. Never again did I had any troubles with idle nor power/response. But I found out this kind of archaic to today's standarts ignition might not be dependable. A few months ago it suddenly died. I could have been anywhere but I was in the driveway at home. Transistor fried due to overheat probably. Hooked up another module and all clear. Since then I bought two more modules. One is in the glove compartement, the other at the shop.
What I mean is that it does not warn when it goes bad so it's better to keep spares at hand.
Anyway, I'm gonna try pertronix and a later dizzy soon. Bought those and a rebuilt 1904 from 56longroof's engine swap. Lets see how it goes.
Good luck.
Regards

 

Years ago I used an MSD 5 on my '55 Ford F-100 239 I gained around 3 MPG and it ran smoother I took it off when I sold the truck,found it out in the garage the other day I had it boxed up and forgot about it guess I'll sell it since I have HEI on the 302. That's this unit: http://www.ecsautostores.com/msd5ignitionbox.aspx

 

Outside of the new wire set, I'm all out of ideas. I don't want to spend money on a Pertronix or MSD box unless it will clear up the problem. I'm going to test for vacuum leaks for the 3rd time and replace the plug wires today after work if the brown truck showed up.

 

Still no change with the new wires, and new/different brand points & condenser. No vacuum leaks anywhere.

 

This may be a dumb question but did you check for the vacuum leaks at operating temp? I have seen and heard of cases if vacuum leaks after an engine gets hot. Just a thought.

 

Compression check with it warmed up.

 

Took fan off to check for timing chain slack, tested chain 3 times and it's fine. While the fan was off I fired it up to recheck for vacuum leaks with propane so there wouldn't be any air from the fan disturbing the leak test. Vacuum leak test was performed at operating temp. This is the 4th time checking for leaks and still nothing. Compression test yields 142-155 across the board, this is the second time I've done a compression test and the numbers this time are all the same as before. Pulled plugs and they look normal, a little bit of soot, but nothing indicating an internal issue. I tested voltage at the coil, and ballast resistor, all perfect.

Tomorrow I will pick up another set of plugs and a new coil for one last ditch effort at getting this ironed out. If no change, I'm throwing in the towel. I can't waste any more money on this issue. Everything has been replaced, tested, and tuned, and it still runs like ****.

I need to know for sure if a later 292 distributor, shaft, and oil pump can be installed on my 239. I have some research to do on that subject. If it can be directly installed with only changing the 13-tooth gear from the 239 onto the 292 distributor, I can at least give that a shot, and eliminate the current Loadomatic distributor and 2110 carb from the equation, since my issue seems more inline with ignition/fuel than anything else.

Can anyone confirm the specifics on swapping in a '58 292ci distributor, shaft, and oil pump into a '54 239?

 

Try this guy first http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=3183 you might want to check in here too over 2,000 members: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fordyblock/

 

The oil pump, pump driveshaft and distributor swap will work on the 239 if you swap the distributor gear, however I'm not certain your carburetor would then be compatible due to the spark valve/vacuum signal. As much as I dislike the Load O Matic design, it should at least provide enough power to drive the car at "normal" speeds.
Have you checked for restricted exhaust? Perhaps a frozen heat riser valve or collapsed exhaust pipe?
What is the ignition timing set at? Y blocks can generally benefit from more initial advanced timing than the book calls for. Like maybe 8 to 10 degrees, even with the Ford O Matic.
If it were mine, I would be tempted to do a complete carburetor rebuild, then I would be able to eliminate that variable.
Has the car been converted to 12V? I ***ume so since I think you referred to a ballast resistor early on. I would byp*** the ballast during tests to eliminate it. Your coil could already be internally resisted.
these are just some random musings. I really hope you find the gremlins. It sounds like you are methodical inyour approach. Keep at it and try not to get discouraged.

 

My understanding is if you ditch the Load O Matic dizzy the vacuum port should be plugged on the carb and use manifold vacuum for advance. The vacuum signal is pretty weak from the carb. Have you tried the guys at Y Blocks Forever? It's amazing the knowledge a few of those guys have.

 

I have a Pertronix II in my 56 Bird. I changed to a later (57) distributor with the Pertronix and so far have been very happy with it.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the later distributor. I guess my next step is the distributor/hex shaft/oil pump swap. I will block off the vacuum port on the carb, as well as ditch the spark control valve and run manifold vacuum to the distributor. This will allow me to use the carb and intake I have on it now, which should be fine as it is the '55-'56 ECG 1-1/16" Venturi.

The engine is set at about 8-degrees initial, and the vacuum advance has a good curve of around 30 degrees. My vacuum gauge is reading a steady 17" as of this evenings daily "well I guess ill give that a shot".

It has new single into dual exhaust with gl*** packs, and the manifolds were inspected when I removed them to replace gaskets. Also welded up a crack in the crossover pipe and the flapper valve is functioning properly. I've tested for vacuum leaks with carb cleaner and propane several times, and even pull the fan to eliminate any disturbance of air coming from the fan affecting the leak test.

Carb was completely rebuilt a few days ago, taken apart the next day and re inspected to make sure the check ball in the accelerator pump cylinder was in place, which it was. Jets are stock. Carb doesn't seem to be the issue as it was and is very clean and in great shape.

It has been converted to 12-volts, and I've tested the coil across the terminals for resistance which is within spec. Also tested for voltage at the coil, voltage at the resistor, and even byp***ed the resistor to make sure there were no leaves unturned.

I am pretty methodical, but when I got the car and it was running bad, I just ***umed it would be a typical tune up, not a game of "find the problem". After all the new parts, testing, tweaking, and tuning, this car should run great for what it is. It should have a crisp throttle and idle smoothly. There are no signs of problems anywhere. It is baffling me as to what is causing this poor throttle response and bogging under acceleration, and the random pop out of the exhaust.

I'm going to gather the parts needed for the distributor/shaft/pump swap and cross my fingers. Thanks all for your opinions and suggestions, wish me luck.

 

May be a stupid question...but hey, I'm sure you'll examine anything at this point.

But...do you have the firing order correct?

 

Haha, not a stupid question. I asked myself that about 10 times in the last two weeks, and I keep coming up with the same answer, yes the order is correct!

 

We have progress... Did another spark plug swap, flushed gas tank, lines, and cleaned fuel pump, added fresh 93 octane. Idled better but still not great. Did another compression test since #8 was running cold based on my laser thermometer. This time I used a cheap rubber tipped compression tester instead of the thread in one, it must have blown some **** out of the cylinder or chamber because now it's running much smoother. I went through the valve adjustment again, retimed it, and I've got a better throttle response and it sounds much better.

I did so much to it I'm not sure what was the culprit, but I'm leaning towards something causing an issue in #8 cyl.

Going to fine tune it today and take it on the road for some shakedown runs and see where I'm at. Before I test drive it I've got to flip the shackles upside down to raise it up because it's sitting on the bumpstops right now.

 

After some more tweaking and tuning with timing, carb, dwell, etc its running pretty good, still not great, but should be driveable. I'm still getting lower temp reading at #8 exhaust port, but compression is over 150 in that cyl.

I'm worn out, I'll **** with the shackles tomorrow and take it for a spin and see how it runs on the road.

 

CANT go wrong with pertronix.I put one in my 390 FE FORD IN2007.HAS STARTED EVERY TIME AND NEVER FAILED!

 

Well, it still needs some tweaking... I took it for a drive up and down the street today, a lot more responsive and seems to move out somewhat ok, but it's popping out of the exhaust under acceleration. Not really popping at idle, so I'll play with the dwell, timing, and carb some more and get it ironed out. Tomorrow I'll take it up the road to the gas station to fill up the tank and run some B12 through it.

Still planning to swap distributor over to later style to see if it helps, but I'm pretty much done spending money on getting it to run right. Time to focus on other parts on the car. I'm now on the hunt for a 302/AOD or possibly even a Chevy LS1/4L60 if I can get a good deal on either. I like to drive the **** out of my old cars, and I don't think this 239, even if running perfect, will satisfy my needs.

 

I know you've been over this, But one last time make sure the plug wires are correct to each spark plug.

 

And test each one in a somewhat dark place. Had two unsuspected brand new ones sparking allover and spent some frustrating time chasing gremlins till i found that.