Can you build a hot rod without a dial indicator?

The whole culture, hobby and sport is in desperate need of some fresh air. Alot of folks worry about being a certain "style" or trend...and its all really bullshit.

Just build the damn thing like you want, or get help from someone who may know a thing or two that you dont. Enjoy the creating process, dont "try" so hard to be something you, or the car is not, and finally....
DRIVE THE GOD DAMN THING, alot

 

Hey Hey Hey we could play together you and me. I`ve shortned so many driveshafts with out a dial indicator it aint funny.Bigest problem,got one out of faze,it shakes a little up to 30mph,fine after that. Engines should be build with some degree of precision. A good tape measure and a level will help build a pretty good chassis. Perfection is too time consuming for an older guy like meLOL Jerry

 

I'm certainly not advocating cobby sloppy work. I come from a construction back ground where one of the favorite expressions was "We ain't makin' a watch"

I discovered that the hot rodder that put the 50 Pont. tail lights in my car all thiose years ago was off by a 1/4". My eyeball could see it and I made the necessary adjustments to fix it.

Like most issues I'm somwhere in the middle. I don't have the tools or the money to carve out a work of art but my standards for fit and finish make me proud of my work. Others may not feel the same way.

 

Feckin A!

I wonder how many modern metric tin boxes are built within an 1/8"? Very few I reckon. You have all that movement in tyres and suspension and people worry about an 1/8"?

Okay, try to get it as accurate as possible, to prevent cumulative errors, but keep in touch with what it is all about. My Morris chassis was built in my back yard on slivers of wood, using a tape rule and spirit level. After final welding, all brackets and stuff on, I reckon it is still all within 1/8".

 

Jalopys don't really need too many high tech tools, but they are fun to own and show off.
My take is :
Do it once- do it right, or as near to right as you can, with the tools and technology you have at your disposal.
If it breaks go back and do it again, this time try to do it better, stronger or with a different ( hopefully more clever) approach, and buy some more tools for showing in the "Ultimate Garage", where you park your jalopy.

If it is a racecar I have to add that if it dosen't break it must be too heavy, so go take some material off until it breaks then go back one step.

All tools have come about from trial and error engineering, and people looking for a better, faster , easier more foolproof way to do things.

Hot rodders are the ultimate innovators, and have "invented " most of the tools that exist for building cars , but the tools are only tools, you only "need" them if you are in a hurry, it has all been done before without them, just takes a little more time, patience, and sometimes some rework to get it right.

 

A good example is kingpin angle, there's a lot said about that. With the car on a fairly level floor, hang a bolt on a string from a stepladder above the wheel, measure the angle between the string and the kingpin bore. Turn the car around and repeat. The difference of the tangent of the two IS the angle. Anything more is overkill, especially if it involves buying more tools or hiring somebody else to do it.

Another is what is a good weld? Some of the most beautiful welds in the world are shit. Penetration is more important than look. Living proof of that is the first nerf-bars and cow-catcher I put on my stock-car in 1957. All the guys laughed at my "bird-shit". After hitting the wall a couple of times, bent the frame up at a 45 angle, welds held, then they ask me to weld for them. Good weld? Penetration over look, everytime.

 

A lot of this depends on what you're working on. One thing I love about old cars is that it's a bit of an art. You're reaming bushings, driving pins, grinding, heating and bending, diagnosing problems by the way something sounds, feels or smells, rather than looking up a diagnostic code in a chart or whipping out the oscilloscope.
We're working on old cars when there's a lot of high tech shit out there for the "rodders" that you need the dial indicators, laptops, etc. for. It's natural for there to be some bleeding-in of that technology and information.

A good example for me is building Harley motors. You could rebuild a shovelhead with a small set of tools, some craftsmanship, and experience and "feel" is a big part of it. You don't really even "need" a torque wrench. You can't do the same with an EVO, and you definitely can't with a twin-cam. You need increasingly specialized tools and exactness.
I can think of one example where a good friend, old-school and extremely talented and well respected guy (will remain nameless) did something for me on one of my bikes that was "old-school" and worked for him on his older rides but stranded me and my bike on the side of a mountain road in Wyoming.

His experience gave him the confidence to make a decision that was wrong. Some of us don't have the experience OR the confidence, we haven't learned by doing it 100 times already or by having someone show us. So we read everything we can and over-analyze. Just want to do it right, and we appreciate those of you who suffer the same questions over and over again and offer help anyway.
There are also some of us who don't enjoy the "thrill" of wondering whether something we've done for the first time will grenade on us because we think we got it close enough without using some little instrument to be sure, or having to spend twice the cash to learn things the hard way.

By the way, I use a level and a tape measure.

 

"precision" tools in my garage include:

Levels, a 4', 3', 2' and a couple torpedo levels.
Plumb bob and line
Chalk reel and line (never underestimate the power of a long straight line on the floor )
about 6 or 7 assorted squares
Angle finder
protractor
2' straight edge
Starret protractor head, center finding head and square head all share the same 18' rule
ONE tape measure (always use the same tape for an entire project my dad always told me, and he was right)
vernier calipers

and yea, last but not least i DO own a dial indicator, HOWEVER, its in my wood shop in the basement and i only use it to set up my table saw and the jointer.


now, do i USE all that shit all the time? no. i skip steps when its not all that critical.

after all, i aint building a watch

T

 

Tommy, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Here in New Zealand they've taken all the fun out of rod building. Back in the day, I welded up several T bucket chassis. Now I'm not allowed to because I'm not a qualified welder. Rods have to be "certified". Strange thing is, I've seen a "certified" rod that had welding I would be ashamed of.

 

I kinda feel the same way...I'm just an uneducated old fart that happens to like cars. Back in the late 50's and early 60's I drove what I raced on weekends. It might not have been the most techinically correct car but it was safe and got the job done well enough to suite me. I don't even have a garage now but I still like my old 36 truck even when it's not running ( like right now ) . I think the techinical end of our hobby a.k.a. way of life has gotten in the way of "fun with cars" . My truck may not posess all the modern bells and whistles but it will go down the road and stop safely. Do you need more than that?

Chuck Fish

 

Whats a dial indicator?

 

I know guys that can't sleep if something is off a little. There are things I'd like to have better if I had the time and/or the money, but I don't. If I don't compromise a little here and there my project will not be done until sometime after I'm gone.

 

Some guys have done a lot of this stuff and have gotten to know what matters and what doesn't.

Other guys are having a go. Maybe first time. They / we don't always know which bits are critical and which bits aren't.

That's the great thing about the HAMB. Hopefully the guys that know will help the guys that don't. If a measurement or spec is not critcal, be a pal and post an answer like, "Don't sweat it, it'll be OK"

That is just the kind of answer I got this week when I asked about setting up the angle of my motor / carbs. That's all I needed to know. Thanks guys.

Pete

 

good post.

i come from a race engine background,real technical shit. in that world the longer you hold something you're measuring the bigger it gets.
a loooong time ago i bought a used race car chassis & asked an old guy i knew who was a really old school race chassis builder if i could bring it over for him to check out.
he cked it with a tape measure & the left rear frame rail was "tweaked" a little.
he made me get a 4x4, a floor jack, a chain, & a 5lb bfh. he put the 4x4 on top of the frame rail & under an i-beam he had in the roof, put the jack in a certain spot under the frame rail, ran the chain around the jack & the rail, jacked it till the 4x4 started creakin & said "hit that sumbitch HARD right there.
i whacked the shit out of it & he started undoin the setup.
i said "that's it?"
"yep!"
that sumbitch was perfect & i won a track championship with that car.
it's amazing what you can accomplish with a tape measure & a 5lb bfh, as long as you've got your readin glasses to see the tape.

 

Hell all I used on mine were 4 jack stands flat floor 2 levels& 2 tape measures & a lot of luck & some good friends / old know how just my 5cts worth

 

Will that work on a dirt floor?

 

on a dry lake,,, prolly LOL

 

Personally I don't do anything without a dial indicator. Hell ya gotta have something to scratch you ass with.

I think there is a very thing line between techno babble and what is good enough for me.

To start with I'm a machinist, and have been for a very long time. But I also figured out a very very long time ago that there are plenty of instances where a piece of string is more than straight enough, and in a pinch I can and do use a piece of twine with a nut tied to it for a plumb.

There are places that on the natz ass is criticle and there are other instyances that close is cool. I guess it takes a lot of time and a ton of mistakes to learn to tell the difference. Lots of time I see posts that make it just obvious that there is one hell of a learning curve here. I guess I've just forgotten what it was like when it was all new and improved. or maybe I'm just a stupid old man.

But not to step on anyones toes, if ya wanna sweat the little shit go right ahead.

 

I've been at both extremes. I used to try to make everything exactly perfect. My buddy kept tellin' me "You're not building a fuckin' piano!". Then after working in the oil field and farm mechanic worlds for a bunch of years, I got to the point where "that's good enough for what it's for". Now, I try to make stuff that's critical as close as possible, but common sense and logic reign in a lot of my "piano building" on the stuff that isn't rocket science. For the record, I'm an old fart, too.

 

Hell I still set my points with a matchbook cover.
Whats a dial indicator?
----------------------------------------------------------
"Common sense is'nt so common anymore"......Will Rodgers

 

well it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. sure a rod CAN be built without fancy tools, if you consider a $20 indicator fancy.

how many of us have built an engine that lasted 200,000 miles without a teardown? 100,000? how about 50,000? i'd bet there's a lot more that have had to re-rebuild their motors after 10-20,000 than have gone past 100,000. why? why can toyota build engines that last forever when a backyard builder is doing good to get a tenth of the miles out of his? dumb luck? i don't think so. if you're building a rod for weekend cruises or to roll on and off the trailer, just about anything goes. plan on driving it cross country regularly? it takes a different level of accuracy if it's gonna last. 50 years ago, you built a hot rod, life was simple, if you had to go over 100 miles one way, it was a big trip! now many of us drive that kind of mileage every day just to get to our jobs. if you want to build to 50's standards, drive 50's highway speeds, it don't take much, it's different if you want to prove your "hot rod" is hot compared to todays factory rides, you'd better learn to use some of the better tools available.

bottom line, using the rear end example, if i pull a junkyard axle, stick it in some jalopy, weld on some brackets, i probably ain't gonna worry about it. now if i drop a couple of grand on a Currie rear end(something i've actually been looking into for one of my cars) i'm gonna make damn sure it's right before i go and fuck it up.

 

I don't even use air tools. I prefer good ole end wrenches. I stick weld most things because thats what I know how to do. I was a pipeliner and feel comfortable welding with 6010 and 7018. I have a plasma cutter that I haven't used in 2 years. I torch cut everything. I enjoy the time in the shop. Don't care if I have to grind and fit. Whats a dial indicator. Is that what the highway patrol make you blow in. TP

 

Yeah you could... But I agree with Slag, I'd rather only do it once and know it's right. Though really I would only use the dial indicator to set up a rear end, like the quick change for my roadster, can't really do it without it and expect it to live behind the dual quad 425" Nailhead... now for the most part I don't use a lot of super precision gadgets, but I use nice tools, I measure a lot, I weld then measure it again. Hell I enjoy making sure it's right....

 

I think I still own a dial indicator...its way in back of the bottom desk drawer. Been there for a few years now.

How percise most things need to be depends on the person involved. Kind of like what "safe" is, depends on your level of nerviousness. If you are concerned, make it so your confortable. With that said, some things need to be in closer tolerances then other things. Motors and transmissions need to be closer to a set of demensions then a chassis does, unless your building a Nascar chassis that has to meet someone's set demensions.

I have a buddy that has been a machinest for years. His favorite comment is "There are three deminsions in machining, the one they want, the one they will accept, and the one you give them." Most mechanical componets have a tollerance between the extremes of what is acceptable, usually given in a plus/minus demension. A blueprinted part is a part with the demension at the center point of a plus/minus demension. I think too many people are lead to believe everything has to be to a blueprint set of demensions. As we grow more experance, (and older) we figure out which parts need to be blueprint critical, and which parts can fall into the plus/minus set of demension, and which things can fall into the "the demension you give them" area.

Building a hot rod has to be confortable for you. You need to build it to whatever tolorances you feel you need. That level is up to you to decide. We all have things we feel "have to be correct" in our minds. For yoyu to fully enjoy your car when you get it done, you need to build it to your confort level.

For me, some things have to be done a certain way, and I won't comprimise on those things. Some other stuff just has to be close. The guy with the tail lights off made me smile. I'm the kind of guy that hangs the lights and jumps in for the ride. If I were sitting and looking at them and realized they were way off, I'd probably correct that. But that 1/4", maybe, maybe not, depends on if it bugged me too much. Most folks wouldn't notice a light off 1/4" while rolling down the highway at 70. Now, if I was redoing the lights, or changing them, the next go around I'd probably work a little harder at getting them straight. Its all about that confort level.
Gene

 

I've found that the more I learn about things,the less I REALLY know.
The more you worry about what you don't know, the less time you spend
on getting things done.
Take pride in your work,and do things the best you can.
If you can't figure something out,don't be afraid to ask for help.
You'll know more than you did yesterday.
And less than you'll know tomorrow.

Doc

 

Mo opinion is it can be as crooked as all hell and be cool as long as its yours. But if you own or work in a shop its a whole different story. I find that i fudge a little on my own projects but on my customers cars no way. When people are payin its a nother story. If its your buddy and your cuttin it up in the garage then its his call. But I think theres a differance beetween low tech and just plain messin somethin up. Ive never set up a rear end without a dial indicator.

 

If you can eyeball everything and have it turn out right, and not go down the road like a lowrider with the three-wheel-motion, good for you. My uncle is like that. He's a gunmaker, and does everything by eye and by feel, no dial indicators anywhere in his shop. And his guns actually shoot!
For me, I KNOW I can't cut a straight line, or drill a round hole, so I have all kinds of shit in the shop to help me do those things, and make sure they are right afterwards. I also don't like it if everything doesn't line up perfect. But I enjoy all the measuring and fiddling around with micrometers and stuff.

 

Common Sense tells me that things last longer,and work better,
if they are assembled correctly.

If that means using a dial indicator,vernier caliper,or micrometer,so be it.

They are tools,just like Common Sense.
Why not use the proper tool for the job ?

Unfortunately,Common Sense is becoming increasingly scarce.
Maybe the Chinese will start manufacturing some,and sell it to us.

 

Didn't you hear? Common Sense is dead - here's the obit:

OBITUARY NOTICE!
2 December 1999
Today we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense. Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools, hospitals, homes, factories, and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.
For decades, petty rules, silly laws, and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in out of the rain, the early bird gets the worm, and life isn’t always fair. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it’s okay to come in second.
A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including feminism, body piercing, whole language, and “new math.” But his health declined when he became infected with the “IF-it-only-helps-one-person-it’s-worth-it” virus. In recent decades, his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal regulation.
He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers and enlightened auditors. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies, reports of six-year old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, a teen suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student, but cannot inform the parent when the female student is pregnant or wants an abortion. Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional sports.
As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic, but was kept informed of developments, regarding questionable regulations for asbestos, low flow toilets, “smart” guns, the nurturing of Prohibition Laws, and mandatory air bags.
Finally, when told that the homeowners association restricted exterior furniture only to that which enhanced property values, he breathed his last.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers: Rights, Tolerance, and Whiner. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

Back O/T - I agree - I think there's too much nit-noid-ing of stuff in places it doesn't really matter & tend to favor the BFH approach.

 

I'm sure Modern Science could develop
an Artificial Common Sense Substitute,

if they weren't so busy making Expensive Crap we don't need.




Of course,the people who need it the most,would never buy it.

Unless it became a Media Driven Status Symbol.