Engine assembly tips:Dry or Wet?????

The manager, at my Porsche team, insists that no oil should be used on piston rings. A slight amount on skirt is all that's required for a proper break-in, with Molly type rings. Very few experts seem to use this tecnique. Any HAMB'rs want to throw their opinion out on the table? I am building a 64' 394 Olds v-8, with .030 cast pistons and molly rings, from Egge. Any help will be appreciated.
JT

 

i've always oiled them up with motor oil , never had a problem..i don't think you would either

 

Everythings going to end up getting oil on it in the long run, why run the chance of scoring the cylinder on start up...

Flatman

 

When I do engine assemblies I have a can with oil that I submerge the piston assy into before I compress the rings. I have always done this with the thought that it needs the lubrication on initall start up.FWIW

 

You can't use too much pre-oil, just wipe the gasket mating surfaces clean when closing up. Catch the drips to keep the floor clean.

1) Mabybe he's jivin' you.

2) Maybe he oils the cylinder walls and pistons and don't figure any more is necessary.

3) Maybe he's full of it.

 

OIL everything. Of course you checked to see if Egge bored the wrist pin holes on center, didn't you?

 

Some racers I know use no oil to help the rings seat faster, I have never agreed with this myself. BUT I would not use synthetic oil to assemble or for the first run on an engine, I did do this once and had to use the old Bon-Ami trick to get the rings to seat.

 

I read about this once in a motorcycle magazine, the theory was that the excess oil on the rings would burn causing them to hang on the residue. Dry
startup required a perfect finish with moly rings. This was also on a motor that was going to be started immediately after assembly. They only used a little oil on the skirts. I've never tried this. I still use the dunk method on motors that may not get fired for awhile,but I have put together motors by
just oiling the pistons and rings with a little 5w30 in a squirt can. Cylinder walls were always wiped down well with oil also.I guess the idea is you don't have to go nuts with oil, moly rings will seat almost instantly if you have the correct bore finish.

Doc

 

I found this at www.442.com
If you're installing moly rings, DO NOT soak the piston in oil. Lightly oil the bore with a lint free rag and install piston assm. If Moly rings get soaked they WILL NOT seat.
Squirt some oil in the pin area and work it back and forth. Just wipe some oil in the cylinder. Dipping the piston in a big can of oil used to be standard practice years ago. It was discovered that the oil was burning right after startup, causing carbon buildup in the rings.

 

I don't dip the pistons in oil, as i've been taught that the rings wont seat as they should off the bat Thus, I lightly oil the rings by hand (dont dip,) and then I put a very light oil rub on the cylinder walls.

When it comes to ring problems, the most common problems i've seen is wrong ring gaps or not seating rings properly in cylinders when installing.

-scott noteboom

 

malarkey. They've never been inside a motor that's running. It's a rain-forest of oil in there, I'm told. Oil on the bore gets on the rings. SOAKING rings? A Dollar to a donut; Soak them for a week, they get no more oil than wiping them with an oil soaked rag. It all runs off anyhow. Carbon buildup in rings comes from oil in the combustion chamber burning and migrating down. Nothing special about moly rings, except they wear less than cast iron, consequently the break-in wear is more with the cylinder walls than the ring-face. That takes a while anyhow, long after any pre-oiling procedure.

 

I wipe the walls spotless then coat with marvel mystery oil lube the skirts and install never had a problem.

 

Given the choice between lots of oil on breakin and no oil on breakin, I'd take lots. I've always done my own engine assembly, and I've always lubed the piston/ring assemblies liberally (with both cast and moly ring sets), and have never had any breakin problems.

 

I use brakecleaner to totally clean the cylinder, then I wipe the cylinder with an oiled rag, and after that I oil the skirts with 30 weight oil, install the piston, and then spray a little, very light oil or WD40 into the cylinder when the piston is down in the hole during installation of another piston.

 

Moly rings and cast iron rings are not the same. Moly rings are softer than cast iron rings.This is why they seat faster. Cylinder wall finish is critical,the coarser finish used with cast rings will wear out moly rings prematurely. Moly rings will seat on almost a smooth bore.Cast rings require "break in" miles to properly seat. The "dry" startup idea is probably an overkill method spewed out by people who read too many "Trick engine building ideas" magazine articles.Put it together and run it you'll be fine.

Doc

 

err whuzzat a front porch or a back porch??? hehe.
at the race engine shop where i used to work moly rings were liberally coated with 50wt race oil before the pistons were installed.
sometimes we'd fire the motor the same day it was built & make 3 or 4 dyno pulls on it.
i figgered if it was good enough for national record holdin engines it was good enough for me.
i've been slatherin them for 25+years & never had a problem with rings seating or premature wear.
now i've only been able to make a 668hp 350 live for 200 passes before it needs to be bumped through the hone & have new rings so i don't know if any of this applies to a somophistimikated engine like them porsches.

 

I work in a shop that builds engines day in and day out. We use 15W30 to lube the cylinders, and we "dunk" the pistons/rings, prior to assembly. After assembly, we run the engines on the SymTest. Every engine that we build goes through a strict dyno run and oil sample before it gets painted and crated for shipping. I would never assemble any moving parts of an engine dry. You're just asking for premature failure. I've never read any service/ technical manual that specifically tells you to assemble any component dry. Think of it this way, while the engine is running, the rings are getting oil- aren't they?

 

Oil the bores by masaging the oil into the cross hatch with your fingertips, work oil into the pins, and pin bores, lightly oil the rings with a mixture of 10W and ATF. Assemble.

Frank

 

Talk about lubrication, I have always used luberplate assembly lube on the piston skirts and rings, never had a problem with rings not seating. The first few seconds a new motor turns over is life or death on the cly walls why take a chance on scoring a fresh motor.

 

A guy I know rebuilds T's, A's and Flathead V8's as a parttime business,...does about 2-3 per month,....he slobbers everything with STP.

 

I always use TORCO engine assembly lube. I have used it to put together over 50 engines, some with nickel-ceramic bores, some with iron liners (I work on a lot of new dirtbikes) and have never had a problem with ring seating. I don't go nuts with the stuff, just a light coat on the bore and rings when assembling.

 

Actually, there's a product out there many of my trusted engine builder pals are swearing by.

It's called "Quickseat" and it's made and sold by Total Seal (the piston ring company).

It requires you wipe and clean the bores, then dust this Quickseat powder inside them. Then, you install the pistons/rings dry. The Quickseat is the only lubricant required.

http://www.totalseal.com/

It's on page 89 of the catalog you can download (PDF) at the site linked above.

This is the only instance outside of moly rings where I've heard of installing pistons without lubricant.

I have built engines "dry" with moly rings before- no ill effects.

I've built engines "wet" with moly rings too...they did take forever to seat and stop puffing smoke, but once they did they were good for a long time under harsh conditions.

For what it's worth, the dry-install thing was taught to me by an old-time engine builder, and he said the moly rings would seat faster and last just as long. They proved to do both.

So, it seems there are many ways to do it "right"...oil gets to the cylinder walls pretty fast after start-up, and if it helps moly rings seat, so be it.

Me? I trust the Quickseat product. I've heard nothing but praise for it. If you want to install things dry, this product is the insurance many of us need. For a slew of top builders, it's become the only way...but race engines aren't designed to last forver either. I'm confident the Quickseat would be a great choice for any engine, but I cannot say I've used it myself. At least not yet...I will, that's for sure.

~Scotch~

 

I never heard of Quickseat but I might try it. Old ring sets came with instructions to dip piston in oil then install
I did that for years but BBB Inline8 wouldn't seat for 3-4 races. As SCOTCH said,an old time drag racer told me also to wipe a little STP on cyl. below ring travel for skirts to get. Worked like a dream. Break in was sitting in car on trailer on way to track with rpm up. About 10 min. run[ being late] till green flag dropped. Went from back to win and the power was back without blowby like usual ring job.

Fireball 5

 

A couple more examples and confusing facts. We had a new Chevy 1 ton 454 that used oil. Dealer warrantied a ring job and block man told them to put in cast iron rings. I assumed they wouldn"t last as long as OEM rings, but I would trade in 3 yr. anyway. I didn"t . It ran 16 years doing hard work spraying 2000+ acres of corn, pulling Heavy trailers and plowing snow. Thousands of hours. No oil and easier on fuel than previous 350 and 400 Last few years I had a sign in rear window "This is not an abandoned vehicle" Finally the rear Dif. blew, -- And it was
Another lesson: We O-hauled our little 253 screamin demon Detroit. Instruction with sleeve/piston set said do not remove piston from sleeve. I checked with a rag and sleeve was heavy with gray honing grit. So I pulled e'm and cleaned and oiled e'm. Ran fine but rings didn't seat for 3 years [intermittent use]. Finally quit wetstacking,[blowing oil out exhaust] Guess I should have followed instructions.

Fireball 5

 

I have built thousands (yes I did engine rebuilds daily for 7 years) and always installed dry. The only lube it got was some WD40 in the cylinder if it was going to sit for a while. I never once had an issue (yet )

 

While on this subject.... how do you guys clean your cylinders after honing?


Bones

 

I've been curious about if any opinions may have changed since this was first posted. I started assembling air cooled engines dry about 18 years ago, (vintage motorcycles). My first car engine in years was this past spring, thought about it for a while then built my 8BA flathead dry. Everything seems perfect, I'm staying dry.

Mostly cast iron rings, not all of them.

 

^^^ Are you using the quickseat product on assembly by any chance? Perhaps you could share your procedure.