Technical Adapter plates - Caddy 500 to....

I gather that the Caddy 500 uses a B.O.P bell housing bolt pattern?

I'm looking at the possibility of putting one in front of a ZF S5-42 manual trans which I understand is found in larger Ford pick ups?

Am I correct in assuming that a B.O.P to Ford BB adapter will allow me to mate the Caddy to the ZF tranny?

Any recommendations of who might supply such a thing?

Thanks in advance.

 

If the BOP to Ford adapter attaches to the BOP bell and then mounts the Ford then it should be just that simple. Best to contact the vendor who sells the adapter and verify.
I have not seen such pieces but you need to insure that the input shaft splines make adequate contact with the clutch disc (100% would be nice...) and that the adapter provides 'something' for the pilot bearing/bushing, even a drawing so you can whittle one yourself.

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The Ford ZF 5 speeds came with at least 3 different bellhousing patterns themselves since that transmission was offered behind 3 different engine families. Make sure you do indeed have the 460 Lima pattern (Big block to the Chebbie folks who don't realize that Ford made 4 engine families through out the years that would all be considered big blocks.), and not the Windsor (351W option), or the 7.3 Powerstroke versions.

Otherwise, it should be a simple conversion, if you can find an adapter. I would start with Bendtsen's Transmission Adapters or WilCap.

Good Luck

 

Ah, that complicates things as I'm over in the UK. The ZF is commonly available over hear and cheap to buy as they are fitted to the Leyland DAF 45 truck which is normally fitted with a Cummins 6BT unit.

 

You should take some measurements first. I would think you would need to measure the trans. input shaft length and diameter. Also the throw-out bearing support diameter. Then you need to consult with somebody about what it takes to install a crank bushing in that motor. After that you can then start to measure an adapter.. Then you will have to find a flywheel to fit that motor. All factory installs of that motor were automatic. Other than that all it takes is money.

 

Thanks.

Every cell in my brain (both of them) tells me to just run a TH400 and be done with it, but every beat of my heart tells me to run a manual.

I'm looking out for an early Diamond T and am trying to resist the diesel force and run a Caddy BB as I feel that'd be a really cool motor to run in one, but really wants to be a manual so I can 'play hot rods' on the stick.

 

You will have to drill the crank for a pilot bushing also. Gary

 

A ZF-5 is not a hot rod transmission. Have one in my 88 Ford F-250 4x4 diesel pickup. Good for strength, but not a speed shifting trans. It has a granny low, normal driving take off in second, and only use granny if a big load or trailer. 5th is OD and nice for highway speeds. The trans has physically pretty big size and uses ATF as lube. Bellhousing is integral to trans, so your adapter to mate this to a Cad 500 would be at the block.

I think a better way for you is to use a std B-O-P bellhousing, and then use a T-56 or similar trans. I understand the choice for the trans used in trucks over in UK, but not sure it is really what you want, at least for performance. ZF-5 is not a performance trans, it is a truck trans.

Also agree with the pilot bushing need crank drilled and dealing with that. You can get aftermarket Cad flywheels, no factory flywheels. Check with the Cad engine specialists for manual trans conversions.

 

Thanks for the replies.... the more I dig, the tougher it looks like it will be.

The truck will be a Diamond T hauler which when loaded will be about 7500 lbs (my VW bug race car is very light) and even though gas prices are crazy over here, I'm determined not to sacrifice a GAS V8 with a stick.

Diesel is not an option. Ever.

Ever.

I'm not looking for performance, I just need it to haul the race car and cruise at 60 mph, yet sound glorious when I cruise around the local area with the rear deck removed in 'rod/truck mode.

As the Diamond T is known as the Cadillac of trucks, I thought the Caddy BB would be a nice fit, but not essential - I could use any V8 I guess as DT didn't have their own.

Availability of a cheap motor is key and over here in the UK, whilst there are American V8's to be had, they're normally in rotten junker G20 vans, or beaten up 80's F bodies etc and still a few grand for the privilege.

Whilst this goes against the HAMB grain, part of me is wondering to throw a curve ball at it and maybe look at the Audi V8 as they are dirt cheap and can be picked up anywhere for less than $1,000 with all the accessories.... for example...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-A8-D...del:A8&hash=item2805fee18a:g:B~YAAOSwu4BV1Es-

Would still need mating to a manual 'box though.

Open to suggestions.... given that SBC and SBF motors are not commonly available at a decent price over here.

 

You can get decent mileage out of the big Caddy (if you can keep your foot out of it). I've been getting just shy of 18mpg on the highway. But then again, I'm running 2.75:1 rear gears.

I think the big Caddy would be a great engine for a Daimond T
Good luck
Bobby

 

kind of strange the thing about manual vs automatic transmissions, and performance. At my house, all the vehicles that have some serious power have an automatic transmission...the manuals are for the underpowered little motors that need all the gearing they can get. There's a reason Cadillac never had a manual transmission behind that engine...they just don't need it.

I've been driving a big block powered Chevy truck for decades with a TH400, it's plenty fun. I had a 4 speed in it for several months before I swapped in the automatic (35 yrs ago)...it was fun to drive, but high on maintenance.

 

The ZF is definitely the right transmission for the truck you want to build. However, I imagine if they were put behind 6BT's over there, they would have the SAE #2 pattern, which should be the same as the 7.3 Powerstroke version over here.

Can you find one that was stuck behind a 460 over there? I agree the 500 Cad would be cool, but the trouble in finding an adaptor may not be worth it. It is relatively cheap (in the US anyways) to build up a 534 stroker out of a 460. Ford put 460's in trucks right up until 1996, they are just about everywhere over here. I don't know how many made it across the pond, but you can always order a pre-built crate motor too.

Good Luck.

 

Performance really isn't a factor. The essential elements are the V8 rumble and a manual shift. I've owned several Corvettes over the years and my favourites have always been the sticks. I just love holding it in gear, heel and toe'ing, backing off on over run and getting the 'pop, spit, crackle' from the exhaust - the manual allows me to play the motor like a musical instrument in ways the auto doesn't and using the auto like a manual just isn't the same.

Budget constraints mean ordering a crate motor isn't viable - I'm looking for the least expensive and lowest hassle method of getting a V8/manual combo as I can.

The ZF came to mind as they are plentiful and cheap over here and can be picked up for a few hundred £££.

A V8 motor is less straight forward from a budget perspective and often the cheapest way is to buy a complete car, just for the motor - an old scabby F body for instance is a cheap source I guess - but European V8's are even cheaper - but are they 'right' for an American truck?

 

Does a European V-8 have a "V-8 rumble", which is one of the "essential elements" ?

 

I'd say that in this case true hot rodding is using what is readily available at a reasonable cost and has a decent aftermarket parts supply chain or sources. That may not be American iron,

 

If I understand 38chev454 correctly, the bell is integral to the gear box, so that adapting the trans would then use a block adapter. This may, or may not, be a good combination but you will need to check/verify a couple of items before getting too far 'down the road'.
I'll assume that you either have on hand or have access to the engine and trans.
•Place the trans against the block. Does the starter have space or will it hit something? If the starter does not fit or, cannot be made to fit, then this is where you stop.
•If the starter looks ok then start taking some measurements to see where the input shaft splines will be in relation to the disc. Since you will be dealing a somewhat special flywheel you will just have to make some assumptions as to the wheel thickness and the disc hub location. This info then plays into the thickness of the block adapter and whether or not a crank flange to flywheel spacer will be required and at what thickness.
•The pilot bearing/shaft support will be the easy part after you sort out the first two.
•Keep in mind that although the flywheel will have the GM crank flange pattern, the OD will have to match the Ford and use a Ford ring gear to make the starter happy.
Of course, all of this is just academic if you don't have access to a machine shop or cannot afford to have a one-off adapter made...it seems doubtful that an adapter for this combo will be on anyone's shelf.

The idea of a European V8 is interesting but aren't they a bit on the small side? What displacements are commonly available 'over there'?

.

 

Alot of good advise, i might just add that MOST BOP bells have a "GM" bolt up and a "FORD" bolt up for the trans. I have put ford top loader on a BOP bell. It is possible

 

...And the BOP bells have casting for the starter on BOTH sides! The Ford transmission footprint is the smaller one, (but Ford Borg-Warner trannies of the heavy duty type have drillings for both large and small patterns, so they bolt up; this is the 'top loader' types, both 3 speed and 4 speeds)
Only thing is: the Ford pattern on the BOP housing is 'clocked' some degrees to the left...

 

This won't work with a ZF-5, they are integral bellhousing as I stated above. There are three different bellhousing patterns used by Ford: the SAE #2 (ie "diesel bellhousing version"), the 460 bellhousing version, and the Windsor bellhousing version (used mostly behind the 300 cu in 6 cyl). You also need to make sure you get a 2wd trans, the 4x4 have the transfer case integrated on the tailshaft, and it has different output shaft length; you can't just swap the tailshaft housing.

Now that I understand the purpose of the truck, a ZF-5 is probably a good choice for trans. The difficulty will still be making the adapter plate that bolts between the engine and the trans. That will most likely be custom made part, not available from an aftermarket supplier.

I have no idea which bellhousing version is used on the UK trucks, or it may be a 4th different pattern than used in USA by Ford.

 

Thanks for the replies and valuable info.
The rumble depends on whether it;s a cross or flat plane crank. The Lotus, Ferrari and TVR units for example are flat plane cranks and sound much higher pitched, where the BMW and Audi examples are cross plane and sound similar to am American until.
A cheap and popular unit over here that a lot of the kit car and replica guys use is the 4.2 litre all aluminium Audi V8 which weighs only 407lbs, has over 300bhp and 295 ft.lbs. Enough for a 7,500 lbs truck at 60 mph?

They sound like this....

 

Have you considered the Rover V-8, as it was based on the Buick 215" engine from the early '60s, & wound up somewhere around 270" or 300" (it does have the American V-8 sound!!) Might there be a stick-shift available for some commercial vehicle in the Rover family?? This would make 'spares' available on your 'home-market' as well, & certainly very much cheaper than freighting them from over here!! Trying to think outside the box, & besides, Buick & Cadillac are both GM products. Now in to an area I'm gonna catch hell for mentioning : BMW does have some very durable V-8s & V-12s bolted to stick-shift gearboxes(for a really 'outside-the-box' sound listen to a barely muffled V-12 'sounding-off'!!)

 

295 lb-ft isn't a great deal of torque so you would need to rely on gears. Since the ZF is OD in 5th then you can use a 4.3-4.6 out back and still be ok at 60. Be warned however that the 295 in a 7500 lb truck will not like hills and you will be down shifting.
The Cad is nearly double the torque...

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Funny you should mention that.... I work for BMW as it happens...

I'm not a fan of the Rover V8.... Buick abandoned the design and effectively gave it to Rover for a reason, maily because it's sh1t.

 

I take your point, hence my initial thoughts of the cad.

I'm from the school that believes torque is everything and power nice to brag about.

Of course we love bolting turbos to our V8's over here, but I'm not really wanting to do that. I'm trying to achieve my goal by keeping things stock and simple (and cheap).

I know a guy that used a 5.0 Mercedes V8 from a S class, but I believe he's still in therapy after trying to get it wired up.

 

Keep after the Cadillac adapter ( I want one also ) that's why I am watching your thread. Good luck on your project, Gary

 

You've got a lot of good info here, but you might want to try the guys on the modified Caddy site @http://www.modifiedcadillac.org
And there are some guys on there from the UK as well. Good luck and hope you can get the Caddy to work for ya'

 

Have you considered using a TurboHydramatic? It would be by far the best, easiest and cheapest solution. GM used them in trucks and motorhomes and they bolt right up to the Cadillac.

If you insist on a manual trans and are willing to pay for the privilege you should be able to buy an aftermarket bellhousing drilled for whatever trans you like. I doubt you will find a manual trans bell in the UK unless you are extremely lucky. They never made a manual trans Caddy, you might find one from a Firebird that fits or extreme long shot, an Olds or Buick.

 

Thanks, but is must be a manual - it's a deal breaker. I've had plenty of auto V8s and every one of them I've wished was a stick. The two manual V8's I've had in the past I really loved.

I'm not fixed on the caddy - it just seemed a really appropriate choice for a Diamond T.

I wondered about getting a SN95 Mustang 5.0 manual which are not too expensive over here and transplanting the the lot..... would a Windsor and world class stick work?

Or maybe a wrecked or salvage 6 speed LT1 or LS1 F body?

Part of me is thinking that taking a motor and trans that are already mated together and working as a unit with the clutch, flywheel and associated hardware already in place and proven would be a smart move?

 

That lets out the Caddy. They never made one with manual trans.

Good idea but, depends what you can find. On this side of the water there are lots of old school buses with big block Chev engines and manual trans, and they don't get many miles on them before they retire. Don't know what you can find over ome.

 

I would put the mustang stick behind the caddy on a pontiac or aftermarket bell or a granny gear 4 speed before i gave up on the 500 that would be sweet in a Diamond T