I started painting the 40 dash (started with the glove box door) for my 31 A coupe and I'm using TCP paint, which I'm pretty happy with so far. The paint was mixed according to the instructions, shot 3 coats in the proper temps with a Binks MG-1 HVLP at 23 psi at the gun and color sanded with 1500 and polished with 3M Finesse-It II and looks super nice and glossy. However, if I get it in just the right light, and look carefully at it at an angle, I see what I would describe as sub surface ripples. Kinda hard to describe, but reflections in the paint from straight on show really straight lines, while reflections at an angle look kinda "pixelated" for lack of a better term. I read somewhere that urethane should be shot with a "high volume - high pressure" gun but I used my HVLP. It kind of reminds me of the look of Imron - I tried to take a picture of the effect but can't capture it. I'm not unhappy with the finish, I'd just like to learn more about the paint I'm using.The color is very uniform, though it doesn't look like it in the photo.
I would give the TCP folks a call and explain it to them. They should be able to answer your ?s. I am thinking of using their 2 stage for a project, so their customer service is of interest to me. Looks good to me! KK
I know nothing about the product you used and even less about painting so this is just a guess. I'm wondering if you color sanded and then polished the paint before it had fully cured. It sounds like maybe you caused paint that was "soft" to move slightly and then when you achieved the surface finish the movement showed up as the ripples you describe. Like I said, I have nothing to base the idea on, just guessing. Probably way off. I am going to learn, hope I don't encounter anything like this.
I'm interested in hearing more, just bought tcp global urethane and have not had a chance to shoot it. Nice color by the way.
a single stage solid color should be uniform throughout as long as each coat knitted together. What you're describing is similar to a Base coat clear coat cellulite, where if you look just right you can see what appears to be orange peel under the clear.
what color primer did you paint over? did the first coat "hide" it well? did you let the first coat dry before applying the second coat? i would keep sanding, even if you go through, until you find out what it is?
31 Vicky came up with a good term for the issue - cellulite - though it just shows up when looked at it on an angle. (and it's more like a 30 year old's cellulite than something seen in People of WalMart) My concern is the 31 coupe has lots of curves to change the viewing angle (like the rear corners of the top) It was sprayed over lt gray primer and each of the coats was sprayed well after the time called for inter-coat drying. Since I'm an amateur at the paint, I made sure I followed all the manufacturers instructions to a "T" and used the best stuff I could get. It came out really nice overall, I just don't understand the angle view issue. Indyjps- thanks, I like the color, too. It looks brown in the shade and the green in the sun.
How far apart, You do need to get it within the window. The second coat needs to flow into the first, and the third needs to flow into the second so that its one, in unison to the primer/sealer. Could you be seeing the second coat thru the third with some separation
My guess ( and it's only a guess since I can't see it up close) is that either the paint has shrunk a bit since you buffed it, or you started color sanding with too fine a grit paper. 1500 only smoothes out the orange peel, doesn't eliminate it. Try a light 1000 cut, then 1500, and buff. I like to wait a while before buffing, doing it the next day is for production shops.
I agree with chopolds, I think the coating has shrunk during cure process. Just wet sand and buff again and see how it comes out first.
31vic nailed it, that cellulite look under the clear coat. The only way to eliminate the look is to level the base layers. I've been challenged on this issue a time or ten, and it's important to me and my clientele that it doesn't show up in the high end stuff I do. The idea behind custom finishing is more about surface development and less about shine. You can make a really shiny golf ball but the surface is still full of voids. The look can be considerably reduced by surfacing the clear vs just sanding it with a bare hand, but from any distance it'll still become out of focus in the reflections. At the end of the day it's a dash panel. Odds are you'll never get far enough away from it in use to notice it that much IF you surface the clear. Now it is possible that it "pinched up" and created the texture a couple days into full cure, and yet again the only way to remove or reduce it is to surface the clear with a paint stick or a firm foam sanding pad. Bare hands will leave a void everywhere you stop with the sand paper. I've found that even the most seasoned of finishers can't stop fingers from leaving a deeper "cut" with the paper. It's impossible to have 100% control of the paper surface with a bare hand. Well maybe if you're a Terminator that can sense surface pressure...
On this piece there is no clear, though I get the theory that's being talked about. And yes, it's just a dash piece, but this is the color and paint I want to use on the body. 31 Vicky - I think the coats were about 15 - 20 minutes apart, as spec'd on the paint can. I really appreciate the help everyone has offered, and I'll give some of the proposed fixes a try and see what I can come up with. If I find an answer, I'll be sure to post it.
remember, "as spec'd" on the can is at perfect 72 degree, no humidity, proper air flow, tip size, air pressure, recommended mil thickness, how much coffee you had that morning etc....
Something to watch for on times between coats is that they're typically based on an overall job. Say you start at the left front fender and work your way around the car. Then you wait the specified time and start again in the same place. That left front has been drying for the entire time it took you to work your way around the car, plus the intercoat wait time. Point being, if you're painting a single piece or a couple pieces, then you need to stretch that time out to get you closer to the actual time you would've had in an overall job. Anything that shortens the time between coats increases the likelihood of trapped solvents. Something I've seen the owner of SPI recommend multiple times on his own site and other forums is to sand just enough to break the surface and then let the car, or parts, sit out in the sun for a day to let any remaining solvents work their way out of the paint before you start serious color sanding. I've tried that, and once the sun starts to warm the surface, the solvent odor will be strong enough that you'd think the paint was still wet.
Another consideration to be aware of, some surface shapes are all but impossible to remove the textured look. Concave areas are the worst of it but it can also be seen in convex shapes (like your glove box door) depending upon how much of a magnifying gl*** effect you get. As a personal example, even sanded and surfaced to the absolute max it can be, the rear fender just below the tail lamp on a 33-4 Packard creates a real ******** magnified effect. Point at it with your finger and it gets about 5X bigger in the reflection. Sadly so does any amount of surface texture from a distance. Some things you learn to accept. I didn't notice that you were doing a single stage material (direct gloss, no clear). You can level that out once fully cured but it's going to depend on how much you already removed. A 2nd cut and polish might go through, but if you level the **** out of it and spray 2 more you'll have a tan (gray?) mirror for a glove box door.
I’m just a DIY er Depending on the temp., humidity, if it was warm (hot) high humidity, you might need to add a little reducer to slow down the drying time to get a better flow. Just remember “the smart ones won’t look and the dumb ones will not know the diference”
One other tip when you are wet sanding and think you are done dry the panel off completely and you will see any texture left behind, then just sand those areas and repeat until the piece looks completely flat in sheen. Then go to buffing.
One question because I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, you did final sand the primer before top coating , correct ? If so what grit ? Could the top coat be picking up a texture pattern off of the primer ? Just food for thought.
had this same "cottage cheese " look discussion with several painters I know so far we have blamed modern high build clears and urethane primers I like a polyester primer, those primers seem to be more stable --- the more things shrink up in my mixing cup when cured , the less I trust it I also like to slightly over reduce clears and single stages and add more coats I try to avoid high build clears on custom stuff I have removed the cottage cheese look by block sanding, usually with a paint stick, starting with 1000 and working up from there I have used 800 on severe cases
Yep, I did sand the primer, with 400 and made sure there wasn't any texture. The distortion only shows up when you're looking at the piece at quite an angle and I have to say I'm pretty happy with the color, gloss, etc. except for this "problem" - I just wanted to know if there were any real tricks to using urethanes - you know, the kind of thing you figure out after lots of experience. When I mentioned Imron, I just remembered looking at a few Imron jobs and seeing something similar to what I'm experiencing. Honestly, I really appreciate the many tips and tricks p***ed on by all who replied. And I will be calling TCP tech today, I'm not unhappy with them, just trying to get a better handle on using this paint as I plan on using it more in the future.
If you want to determine that it's in the top coat for sure here's something you can try Get a good flat paint stick or similar tool and wrap some 2000 grit paper on it as tight as you can. You want a really true sand paper surface/tool. Gently sand over the part with the intent being a simple "read" of the paint surface. Just like a guide coat for primer, your sanding should be light and incomplete. Wipe it clean and see if it's on top or below by reading what you sanded. There will be shiney spots low and sanded spots high. Might take all of about 5 min and then you'll have your answer and what to do about it. And let us see it if you do.
35 lbs is like using a spray can, you cannot move paint at 35 lbs On the west coast the government tells you what equipment to use. 35 years of siphon feed gun and several hundred overall paint jobs with Dupont finish systems, even after their constant phasing out and changes I can produce a quality finish with the siphon using higher pressure .Watch any guy on You tube when hes clearing a panel or overall you can hardly see him, thats in a down draft booth. Thats a little much for me I apply the technique with a high volume top loader and spray the base coat at about the same pressure as clear. I use a gauge only as a reference every day there is a change in the air and the working conditions and that can change in the middle job Say 45 lbs Your eyes, mind, and your experience is telling you things like overlap coming up, where to start were to end, not ready or dry enough to re coat, good or poor coverage. My favorite is WOW thats enough. Paint your parts all at one time never mind this jumping around, mix enough material to complete the job, like a group of small parts. I can stick any paint for thinning or constancy, the whole story plays out when it is sprayed on the surface.Mixing cup is more accurate. ABOVE ALL concentrate on the process, you can call you girl friend later or you can call her right after you screw up and you have to re do the job. Baron Von Vasnic
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