Technical Rebuilding cowl steering

Hey guys, first time posting here, hopefully it's in the right spot. Just a heads up, I've done tons and tons of reading about cowl steering but I'm now stuck. So just know that I have searched and searched before bringing my problem on here.

So this is my first hot rod so naturally it's my first experience with cowl steering. Here's some quick background info that's probably relevant.

It's a 37 Ford truck and it already had the cowl setup when I picked the truck up. It's done very well with being tied into a very strong square tube frame that ties into the frame. The previous owner wasn't sure what the steering box came out of, he thought it was an old Toyota but couldn't confirm. I've been unable to figure out what it's from.

The box is clearly worn out. There's a ton of slop, not to mention it's definitely a beast to turn, especially at lower speeds. So without knowing what it's from, no one can give me a clear answer on the possibility of a rebuild. So I figured I'd upgrade to a new box so it would take care of the slop, I'd know what it is for future rebuilds, and I could go with something like a 20:1 ratio in hopes of making the steering a bit easier.

Here's my dilemma though, I can't seem to find a box to do what I want it to. I would like to keep the setup how it is in regards to mounting / geometry. It's solid and has 0 bump steer so I don't want to mess up a good thing. I can't seem to find a box that would mount similarly and keep the sector shaft rotation I need. I've been in contact with Borgeson and they don't seem to have any ideas either? My first thought was a Mustang box, and then maybe a Saginaw 525. Both would mount how I need them to and have the input / sector shaft in the correct locations. But rotation would be an issue.

So is there anyone that might have some ideas of a good box to use? Or possibly know what box I'm running now so maybe I could just rebuild it?

Here's a link to a bunch of photos of the box / setup.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8Hi1usoo1ovWDgydU81S2syajg&usp=sharing

Thank guys!

 

Ok let me go out on a limb and say that you probably have an F1 box modified to cowl steering. That was a common box to alter a few years back. It is not likely that you are going to find a direct bolt in but you should be able to get the pieces you need to rebuild that box and you will find that unless you are exceptionally anemic that you can steer it once the box is in good shape.

In the future if you decide to build a car with cowl steering you really want to look into a real cowl box like from a roundy round car, a Schreoder is a good box as is a Ross.

 

That is a 75-78 toyota pickup manual box http://www.buyautoparts.com/buynow.asp?partnumber=82-70145_R - should work fine if you get one in good shape or Try BMW 2002 (the model from the 70s not the year) a mopar box (A body,etc) or reversed corvair....

 

If it really is a Toyota like Idinitdoit says, it has been reversed. How adept are you at mechanical things? Read up on the HAMB about reversing steering boxes, and then decide if you want to tackle that project. It might also explain why you haven't found any other boxes with the rotation the same as what you have. Yours is backwards!

 

correct - it has been reversed - looks like a piece of tubing was welded on to where the shaft now comes out too (support bearing?) who knows what was done inside. As far as being tough to steer, how much caster is the axle set up with? How wide are the tires? Length of pitman arm vs steering arm? In addition to the options I posted above, you could also look at a sprint car box or a steering quickener (also used in roundy-round cars) to use with a slower box.

 

Thanks for the replies. Didn't know people were replying, so I apologize for being MIA.

Idinitdoit, thank you for identifying it. That definitely looks closer than anything else I've came across. I have plenty of mechanical experience, just never messed with steering before. Well and being my first 'rod', there's a lot I'm learning as I go actually.

That extension tube is actually welded to a splined "sleeve" that is bolted to the sector shaft and then goes through the cowl and has a flange welded on the end that the pitman arm attaches to. I've seen a few guys run similar setups. Seems pretty stout.

So just to clarify, there seems to be two forms of "reversing" I've came across. One being simply the rotational direction is changed, the other (and what appears to be the case here) is the actual input / sector shaft is essentially flipped to the opposing ends. Is this correct? With that in mind, wouldn't a rebuild be the same as if it were stock? Something an experienced rebuilder would be able to tackle? Keeping the same box would be ideal so I'm not redoing the whole setup.

That brings me to the other point of steering ratio. To answer some of your questions Idinitdoit, the front tires are 6.25, can't remember what the caster was, but a friend that's helping me out (and vastly more experienced with ch***is setup) said it was within what's normal for a 30s Ford setup? I'd have to check exact length of the pitman arm but I'm running one of the hoop style steering arms. The truck is decently easy to steer (minus the slop) at speed, it's when I'm going slower (like 20mph or less) that it becomes a real bear. In that case would I want a quickener? I was thinking a higher ratio would be the way to go? Maybe I have that backwards?

Thanks again guys, tons of help.

 

Another quick question, any idea what the steering ratio of that Toyota box is? I'm not finding much info on it. I also posted up in a Toyota off roading forum. Figured those guys are probably the best source of info on that box. So we shall see.

 

In the future if you decide to build a car with cowl steering you really want to look into a real cowl box like from a roundy round car, a Schreoder is a good box as is a Ross.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the Ross cowl steers I've seen in race cars were converted. The purpose built gears were Evans (later Thomas), Norden, Davis, as well as Schroeder, and others. All these used a worm and worm wheel for the sector shaft gear as did the Franklin automobile steering which was widely converted and used.

The Ross used a worm style gear with a single peg or double peg type sector shaft follower that was more prone to wear because it did not have the rolling motion of the mating worm and worm wheel gearing which also resulted in less steering effort.

 

I think your focusing a bit too much on the ratio - pull the box and get the slop out of it.....it may only need adjustment. measure your caster anything over 5 degrees will make it harder to steer. are the front tires properly inflated? what about the kingpins? are they "siezed" or tight with the drag link un-hooked? check the lengths of the hoop vs the pitman arm - anything else binding? get what you have set up right first - you may be surprised....

 

Thanks for the info. I'm starting on the disc brake conversion this weekend so I'll check the kingpins then.
What about upgrading the kingpins to something like this? http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deluxe-1937-41-Ford-King-Pin-Set,8329.html Seems like a lot of people have good luck with them.

I'll compare pitman / steering arm lengths and report back. The drag link is almost perfectly parallel with the ground though, so I have basically 0 bump steer which is nice. I'm not sure how much I want to mess with the length of the pitman arm in fear of introducing bump steer.

Oh, and the tires are inflated properly.

Actually now that I think of it, you might be onto something with the kingpins. I'm getting some movement in the front axle. You can see it "flex" a bit before the wheels start to turn. It would seem I'm losing a lot of energy there that would otherwise go to moving the wheels. Makes sense then that it would take more effort to move the wheels. Any idea what that may be from? Could that be a symptom of bad kingpins? I've already replaced the perch bolts because I wanted to make sure the holes in the axle hadn't become "bored" out at all. Figured I'd put new bolts in just to be safe. It seemed to help a bit but there is definitely still some play in there. I had ran out of ideas.

 

I've read bad reports on those roller bearing kingpin conversions. Seems they are apt to cause brinnelling on the kingpin due to the very small range of motion (most of the time is spent not turning at all). Henry Ford only made a few thousand-million kingpins with br*** bushings, so I'd think he did it the best way possible. A new stock kingpin set might be your best bet.

As for reversing a steering box, if you are working with a professional rebuilder he may or may not be able to handle it. Yes, the internals are more than likely the same parts as stock (just ***embled backwards), but the box housing has been modified. An extra hole drilled in one end and plugged in another. You may have to find a custom sized seal for the new hole. No hill for a climber.

EDIT: I just went back and looked at your pics again. It looks like the top cap of your kingpin is missing, so you probably have some corrosion in there. And, more importantly, you have your tie rod in front of your axle, but the spindles have not been modified to run it like this. Go read up on "ackerman principle" and then come back here. You will need to do some modifying to perfect your steering setup.

 

low-n-loud I have nothing to add but these guys are giving you advice you couldn't buy so save this thread and ask mucho ? and pay attention Tom ps how about the intro

 

Absolutely. Thanks again everyone for the great insight. With this being my first hot rod it's all a learning experience.

I love the look of the spring behind setup, and the truck drives straight, doesn't have odd tire wear, and has very little, if any, bump steer. I don't have a whole lot of room to move the tie bar behind the axle... and I really don't want it to be the lowest part of the frame / suspension for obvious reasons. So I'm going to see if I can bend the steering arms out a bit to help it as much as possible. But overall it doesn't seem to be too adversely affected by the current tie bar location. Of course this is the only way I've known the truck, so who's to say that outlook can't / won't change haha.

If I can just get the slop out of the steering box and get the super heavy steering to ease up a bit it'll feel like a new car.
Are cowl setups just generally harder to steer than something like a side or cross steer setup?

 

Is there anything about this truck that is traditional? 70ish Toyota, 2002 BMW or did you mean BMW 2002 (still not traditional).

 

It's got 4 wheels, a steering wheel, and an engine. Very traditional.

 

That is true. I will give you that. Not against you. The old 2 standards crowd.

 

Save your money and buy a used sprint car or midget power steering.
They are completely adjustable for "feel".
Parts are available everywhere.

 

When you get the box out and on the bench take some clear photos of it and someone should be able to tell you what you have as far as steering box goes. Depending on the box you may get away with replacing a couple of bearings and maybe a bushing or two or it might be more prudent to go to a replacement box.
The old kingpins/spindles may be hanging up simply because they never got greased enough. For some reason a lot of hot rodders don't grease their front ends often enough simply because they don't like seeing grease on the axles or spindles.

I see the usual "that won't work you have to run out and spend 1000+ SS on a race car unit brigade has shown up with their usual input. That is ***uming a lot when you think every one building a hot rod has deep pockets and unlimited funds for building or repairing a project.

 

Yeah I've eyed the whole sprint car setup before. Seems intriguing but the steering isn't the only thing I'm working on so it seems like money I could / should be spending elsewhere.

Besides, what's better than facing a challenging and making it work? I figure I will learn a ton more about steering / suspension setups in these things by going over all the details and getting this to work.

I should have the box out tomorrow so I'll post some better pics. Hopefully it has a part number or something cast in it. Also I got the number of a local guy that supposedly does great work on boxes, so I'm gonna give him a call as well.

 

"I see the usual "that won't work you have to run out and spend 1000+ SS on a race car unit brigade has shown up with their usual input."

I see the usual "Mickey Mouse it for instant gratification brigade is here also".

 

um a while back I had a person bring me a postal jeep with right hand steering . and a box for left hand steering not knowing there was a difference as they looked exactly the same. but we found out it steered backwards when we put the box on it , we had to order a right hand drive box to correct the problem.
So you may look at seeing if a right hand steering box is available . we were able to order one at napa auto parts . j .

 

...and in between both extremes are a whole bunch of affordable, quality engineered conversions that will work fine and not break the bank.

 

Boxes that are commonly used in a reversed style are pretty easy to reverse. Thats why they are commonly used.

 

and getting rid of the finned drums?

 

Back to the original problem.
If it were my truck now and I hadn't built it originally, I would go thru the whole steering system to see what problems actually exist...not simply what I THINK exist.
I have found that, when I work off what I think is wrong...I was usually wrong in the diagnosis and I've wasted time and money.

Jack up the front end and put stands under the axle. Let the wheels just hang.
Remove the drag link from pitman arm and, by hand, see how easy it is for the wheels to turn. That will tell you if you have tight kingpins. Make sure the thrust bearings are working free as well. Check the king pins for slop in all directions. If you find everything to be tight and free turning while everything is hanging loose...give the pins some grease. Make sure it comes out top and bottom of the pins.
If everything isn't tight but free turning you have found a problem.

Next, rotate the steering wheel completely one way, then back completely the other way, while counting the turns of the steering wheel. Then you need to 1/2 up the total and turn the box to the center point and make sure it stays exactly there. Get someone to hold it or tie it in place etc...but don't allow it to move from dead center.
As an example, lets say it turns 5 full revolutions. Starting from the extreme left, turn the wheel back exactly 2.5 turns to find the actual box center point.
Boxes are designed with a tighter fit at dead center to give precise road feel at that point, but also to allow for some adjustment as the center point wears down over time.
Make sure there is zero movement at the pitman arm with the box centered.
If there is, you have found a problem, and you will need to go thru the steering box adjustment procedure for that particular steering box.
Lets ***ume you found none, or have now done the adjustment procedure, so we can carry on with the inspection.

With the road wheels pointing straight ahead, pick up the drag link and see if the bolt will go thru the tierod and pitman arm WITHOUT turning the steering wheel or the road wheels.
If it doesn't you have found a problem.
Keeping the wheels straight and the steering wheel centered, determine how much needs to be added or subtracted from the draglink length.
If you put a draglink on that is too long or too short you will be forcing the vehicle to be driven with the steering box off center point in its rotation and thus off the "tight" spot as the vehicle tries to drive straight.
All boxes have additional clearance off center so that will make the box "feel" like it is out of adjustment...when its actually not.
Also, if you did tighten an off center box you will cause it to bind up when it p***es the factual center point and potentially destroy it.
They get adjusted at the center of rotation ONLY.

Yes there are potentially other issues you could come across but this is the initial procedure I would follow to check out my steering.
While doing all this you obviously will need to visually check for those other issues etc.

 

Hackerbilt, thanks for all of that info. Super helpful.

I was starting to go through everything on Saturday but didn't spend a ton of time on the steering. Trying to get the brakes all done before tackling the next thing. That said I did check some things out and may have found some potential trouble areas.

Before I disconnected anything I was spinning the wheel with the truck in the air. Very smooth and easy, but it seems insanely quick, like 2.25 turns lock to lock. I know everything connected to the box will affect that ratio so I'm not sure of the box ratio itself. I'll hopefully be able to get the box out next week, so I can check then. I did some measuring though and the overall length of the pitman arm is 10in while the steering arm is 7in. I started thinking about it and thought it made more sense if I measured from the center of the rotational points, which I highlighted in the pics I attached. Would that be the proper area to measure? In that case center of sector shaft to drag link connection on the pitman arm is 7in. Center of tie rod to where the steering arm connects with the spindle is 6.5in. So either way my pitman is longer than my steering arm. So I ***ume that's not helping with the heavy steering. When I get it all back together I'm going to try moving the drag link up a hole or 2 on the pitman arm. I have very little if any bump steer as is, so I'm hoping that little bit of angle won't induce much while slowing the ratio down a bit.

King pins, the driver side has what I would consider a fair amount of play up and down. The p***enger side has 0 movement up or down, but it seems very tight, and gets tighter the further you turn it in either direction. Both were greased in the late summer btw. Oh and I hadn't disconnected the drag link yet, but I did have the tie bar off so they were moving independently of each other. So I have a new set of pins on the way. I'm also moving to flat steering arms so I'll be able to modify them to get them out as far as I can towards the wheels to help out the Ackermann a bit.

I replaced perch bolts over the summer, so after this the whole front end should be good to go.

I am getting rid of the drums.

 

Anyone?

 

"Flex in the axle" - check all the bushings. Sound like Ackerman off to me - measure twice.

 

Measure center of kingpin to center of steering knuckle , compare that to pitman arn measurment to get ratio , the way it is now would contribute to "heavy " steering..
dave

 

The Ackerman was definitely off. The tie rod is in front of the axle. I'm currently putting front discs on so I just ordered some new flat steel steering arms. I'm going to get them out as far as possible to get the Ackerman as good as I can. Would that contribute to axle flex? I've already replaced the perch bolts and new king pins are going in this weekend, so we'll see how it is once it's all back together.

After looking at more, that completely makes sense, given that's the pivot point. So the ratio is off even more than I thought.

Hopefully replacing all the worn parts and getting the ratio more in check will help this thing out.

Thanks guys.