That lower hood line is intriguing...looks like fender-to-frame line is curved in the area where on a stocker it would bolt to frame. I wonder if rail was curved there somehow or whether the curve arches over a step, probably with a strip of steel over it to locate fender to car? Photo is washed out a bit there, they could have curved the fender tin or they could have extended the side cover over runningboard and welded it into a notched-out fender there. The side cover over running board shows where frame presumably still lives in the center of car, so frame must be stepped at both ends if it isn't close to bottomed out in back.
The marketing image to which I referred before: Note the squiggle at the bottom rear of the hood side panel, and the shoved-forward grille shell.
That car has some neat lines !! The front of the frame is swept up here, not a hard Z The fenders come in to meet the frame and sit on top of the frame. The frame is wider than the tapered hood The line on the bottom of the hood side follows the sweep of the frame. When sweeping a frame is in play, the radiator must either get shorter or mount ahead of the crossmember.
The reason your idea looks weird is you kept the stock wheels and tires. Change wheels and tires and it would look like this.
I think what's going on here is a sweeping apron over their usual Z: The Z would have been just below the handle at the middle of the hood side, and would have received the stock front fender from that point forwards. That's also about where the outside face of the frame rail crosses the plane of the hood side, i.e. the frame is narrower than the hood from there back, so there is room for those sorts of shenanigans under the apron. I can't tell if the rest of the apron is shallower than stock: if not, the rear ends of the fenders would have needed reworking. Montier would have had access to local coachbuilders for any bodywork tweaks they might have needed. They lacked the capital for pressing their own rails, though, so why go to the trouble of fabricating a sweep when their usual Z would do the job? I get the impression that they weren't getting a lot more than benign toleration from Dearborn.
Couple-few pie cuts and you get a sweep. Photo shop the wheel out of hard z above and try to get the arch like (roadster top and fenders) above that to layout on it. I think The apron would have to stop abruptly if it were a hard Step or z When were they built? What the chances they used a 33/34 rail for the front sweep and the rear frame over the axle?
Montier had access, either in house or through local artisans to make just about anything he could dream up, and if he wanted new ch***is rails he would have made them. In the case of this modification that was presumably not thought necessary because - as you say - their 'Z' did the job. Montier had been advertising ch***is lowering kits including 'Z's since the T days and in the case of the Model A racers we can see they were never going to worry Bugatti in the beauty stakes anyway so why bother. To sell road going cars to customers would of course be a different matter and the looks were obviously important. As for "toleration from Dearborn" it is probable they were hardly aware of Montier through most of this period. Société Française des Automobiles Ford was formed in Bordeaux in 1916 by Percival Perry, the head of Ford of Britain. Like other European Ford subsidiaries, Automobiles Ford initially ***embled the Ford Model T and this continued at Bordeaux until 1925 and then at a workshop in the quai Aulagnier in Asnières-sur-Seine near Paris until 1927. Model As were made from 1927 to 1931 and Model Ys from 1932 to 1934. The company also imported the US-built V8-powered Ford Model B, but import taxes made them very expensive and so not very popular in France. In 1934 Maurice Dollfus, the head of Ford Société Anonyme Française (SAF), was looking for a larger manufacturing plant and reached agreement with Emile Mathis to enter into a joint venture with the Mathis company forming Matford in Strasbourg and Asnières. The new company name was Matford SA. Ownership was split 60%/40% with Ford having the larger share.[2] The new company was controlled directly from Dearborn which was important to Maurice Dollfus, the president of Ford France, who was keen to avoid finding himself reporting to Percival Perry, President of Ford of Britain in Dagenham, England. As Montier lost his Ford franchise in 1934 we can guess this is related. Henri Dep***e was the biggest Ford dealer in Paris, Mathis presumably already had some dealers of their own, and while Percival Perry may have supported Montier’s cause it is probable Dearborn had no use for a relatively small operation whose main sales pitch was ‘Improved’ Fords. Certainly an American, Mr Lee, was President of Ford S.A.F. in the late '20s or early '30s and he was known to be supportive of Montier's racing efforts, even arranging some financial backing. This was why the Model As were painted white; at that time the national racing colours of the USA (with blue, so possibly the ch***is rails, wire wheels or some other detail was painted blue) so it is fair to ***ume Dearborn would have at least heard of him by then. As Dollfus was in charge by 1934, the American, Lee, had presumably moved on. Coincident to all of this, I did my apprenticeship as a mechanic at W. Harold Perry Ford in Finchley, North London in the early 1970s. W. Harold Perry was Percival Perry's brother and one of the oldest established Ford dealers in London.
Montier was still racing his much modified Ts as late as 1928, and he was certainly racing the Model As by 1930 but I have been unable to find any conclusive photographic evidence of what he was driving in 1929. Either way, there is no way he could have been using 33/34 rails (or any other parts) back then. He did make at least one lowered and supercharged '34 Roadster for a customer but as he lost his Ford agency that year, I doubt there were many of the V8s p***ed though his hands. Incidentally, most of the existing photos of the Montiers racing in 1930 and '31 show those Model As with a full length flat panel hiding the ch***is rails, possibly supporting a flat 'belly pan' underneath as in this photo from the '6 Heures des Routes Pavées' meeting at Marcq-en-Bar (near Lille) in September 1930 where Charles finished 2nd overall and 1st in cl***.
The more I study that cabriolet pic, the less I understand what I'm looking at. It'd be cool if there were indeed a swept frame under there, with a Z at the back. It's how I'd have done it - it's that train of thought which led to wondering what it the sweep were the entire wheelbase, and hence this thread. Chris - I'm hugely interested in the history of automotive production economics. The Coasean transaction cost regime in France c.1930 would have been vastly different from that of, say, the '60s American situation which would subsequently produce the "numbers-matching" at***ude to automotive history. It's hard for me not to make unwarranted ***umptions about what exactly that difference was, and thus easy to err in the opposite direction.
I couldn't tell you the first thing about the history of automotive economics, nor about Coasean or Montier for that matter. Every time Ned posts something I find myself on google trying to figure out what he's talking about. But I can tell you how to replicate the cabriolet, it's lines, panel fitment and its stance and build it. If you want an exact duplicate of the car some more info and pictures would be needed. The basics are there and what's missing can be inferred be going from point A to point B. Where the hood, fender and frame all meet is very similar to a 34 ford truck but the lines are a little different. Observe the shape of the headlight bucket, it has the stretched bullet shape not seen until much later than 1931. ( I don't know what the European flavor of head light but looked ) Below are some pics of 1932 European ford model Y ch***is. The "idea" of swept front and curved rear was around in 1931 if it was produced for 32 - that's a self evident truth. The model Y was scaled up in size for 33-34 US production. I'm more than reasonably certain The cabriolet's frame and ch***is resembles this basic configuration, but at a different scale and various cropping or t*******s
Ned, there is no doubt Charles Montier would have been the type of entrepreneur that goes against everything Coase later recommended. He was born in the previous century in a small town near Tours the son of a blacksmith. He did, along the way, learn a lot about engineering, casting, fabricating and general mechanics, but there is little evidence to suggest he ever followed a serious business plan. He was clearly able to make nearly anything he could dream up, a lot of it in house, including casting parts for an improved four-wheel braking system for the Model T. He also made a series of OHV cylinder heads (there were at least three iterations) when he could have just as easily bought something similar from Frontenac. He sold complete cars for road and/or compe***ion use, engine, braking and ch***is parts, and was an agent for the imported Ruckstell two-speed rear axle. I have no record of how many employees he may have had at any given time, but it is known that both his son Ferdinand and his brother-in-law Albert Ouriou (who earlier had helped Giovanni Agnelli start up a company in Turin that was to become FIAT) worked with him. He moved from his first workshop at Courbevoie, to another at Levallois , and then again to another at Asnières each time because he needed larger premises, which in turn suggests his manufacturing capabilities were expanding. He also had a showroom at Rue Pierre Charron close to the Champs Elysées, and had kept a Ford agency in Tours which was run by his brother. So, as well as his racing exploits it would appear Charles was kept quite busy through the period from 1919 to 1934. So, it would still seem unlikely that he would be building Model As on later ch***is, although he had enough experience by then to know how to design and make his own ch***is. While Ford in America were still making cars Henry's way, Charles knew enough about European cars to add significant improvements. Part of the reason for the Model Ts earlier popularity was its high ground clearance enabling it to travel unmade country roads with ease and comfort. Even though most American towns and cities had paved roads by the time of the Model A, the ch***is was not altered much from the older design. Roads had been much improved in France and Charles saw the benefits of a lower ch***is early in the '20s so it is reasonable to think he redesigned AND made the ch***is for an improved Model A long before he would have seen or heard about the Model Y. Who knows, maybe he even had some influence in Ford's new design? As for the prospect of building a replica today, yes, why not use later swept ch***is rails if it is easier than making your own, this could be interesting.
And another teaser, the front view of that same cabriolet. Photos exist of at least five other Model As and one '34 roadster.
When racing colors were ***igned the US got white body with blue ch***is and wheels. As you can see in the 30s it was easy to tell which car was which by color. In 1950 when Briggs Cunningham raced a couple of Cadillacs at LeMans, the ch***is was covered by the body so he painted the rocker panels blue to represent the frame. This was hard to make out on a fast moving car especially at night. So the next year they moved the 2 rocker panel stripes up to the middle of the car, and the racing stripe or go faster stripe was born.
Yep, and now there are now far more fake 'Shelby' Mustangs around than were ever originally built ! German race cars of course were all white until they thought of removing all paint as a weight-saving trick and the 'Silver Arrows' came about.
The Jalopy Journal
