Hi guys! Well....know there's easier and better ways to do things, but i really want this done... So...i got an 1961-66 un-bored 283" (3789935), 2 bolt mains, forged crank. Heads are 461 camel humps, 1.94/1.50 with Comp 1.50 (1001-16) roller rockers, Weiand tunnel intake w dual 450CFM Holleys. Rods will be aftermarket steel. Also planning on using some kind of girdle for the crank. Having a hard time finding pistons for this, but looking to get 11:1 or slightly more in he end... Crank and heads are crack tested and ok. Plan for this car (63 Nova) is a more or less period correct G***er. Power isn't the biggest concern, but at***ude is... Really want this to be able to hit 8K rpm and stay together without having to mortgage the house.. So far i haven't decided on the camshaft, but as i see it, it will be a mech roller... Car is light, will run a Muncie M20 and Ford 9" with 4.86:1 Any thoughts here?? Cam choice, where to find pistons, anything i overlook, more i need to consider for the rpm's??? Bring on your experience!!! /Stefan
Good engine.You will have trouble getting 11-1 with a 3 7\8 bore engine.I have a .060" over 283 (292") that I just finished.I am using a KB piston with a 4cc dome(currently available from Summit),zero to +.001 deck and .035" compressed head gasket.Chambers average 62cc and CR is right at 10.6-1.I am right on the ragged edge of piston to head clearance.The only way I can come up with any more compression is to use more dome and I dont want to do that.You get to diminishing returns pretty fast. I am using a solid lifter flat tappet cam designed for a circle track engine that works from 3-7500 rpm .You can turn one of those engines 8 grand but I would be VERY careful about what I used for a balancer and a flywheel.I am figuring on quitting at around 7,not as brave as I used to be.The tunnel ram will work a lot better for you on the street if you will use 390 Holleys .I speak from experience here!Those engines punch WAY above their weight cl*** if they are carefully put together.DO use ARP main bolts. I am using a **** capscrew rod in this engine because they are SO much stronger than stock rods and cost so little compared to a broken engine.In any case good luck with your project! You can see from the pic why I have not done a build thread on this engine.
Roger that. Considering those 4.86's and your redline game plan you obviously plan on some sticky compound rear tires too. As 302 jimmy said; this just ain't the environment that M-20's and M-21's were intended to operate in. You will have people swear up and down about the LUCK they've had with em, but the Muncie M-22 and B-W Super T-10 are better choices. When you achieve your expected goals, if you are like most racers, you will be wanting more horsepower/torque, that M-20 just won't be up to the task. Like they say; "pay me now or pay me later", but you will pay.
Thanks!!! Great answers!! Really don't want to live in utopia.... [emoji6] Pistons: Egge got a set, but as i get it, the dome would be a bad idea?? Answer i got from them was: "Thank you for your inquiry. We have a piston with a .190 dome, that with 64cc heads you would have 11 to 1 compression. Not sure what it would be with the 60cc heads. Our part number would be EP2148. The smallest oversize we make would be .020, we do not make these in .010." Well, this car won't see many racetracks, since they're very sp**** here in Sweden....probably won't be very street legal neither, but that's another story... Also confused the gearing in my 9".....counted it again today, and it's actually 5:14 which wont help that M20 much i guess [emoji6] Problem here, is that those boxes don't grow on trees, and the chance to find an M22 is slim to none, but i get your message!!! Rearend will have old style slicks of course, but grip is another story.....not many racetracks here [emoji849] Ok, conclusion would be to lower rpms to around 7K.....? Damper and flywheel will be changed of course. Damper just have to, since it's only pressed on originally.... Steinauge, what cam are you using?? Again, thanks for good input!! /Stefan Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Stefan - There are ge****ts available for the muncie transmissions. The box in my '57 is a ''Frankentrans''. Built from an M21 case with M22 guts. Try www.autogear.net
Been looking somewhat for that too.....as i get it, the only difference is the angle of the teeth? Shafts is the same dimension? I got a 1" main... Will definitively look in to that!! Thanks!!! Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
RaceTec Pistons shows a set for 283 .030 over that will get you about 11:1. They are in there AutoTec line of pistons. I got a set of AutoTec pistons for my 427 BBC and they are high quality USA made forged pistons. I highly recommend them. They made me a set .005, I had a standard bore 427 and didn't want to bore .030. My cylinders had no more than .002 to .003 taper so .005 worked great for me. Give them a call and ask.
Stefan A couple of observations and questions about your component choices and your intended purpose for this car and I see in your profile that you are 56 and a dyno tech. so I hope you understand my confusion. Unless that 283 block has led a sheltered life, I'm guessing it will require an overbore more in the range of plus .030, which helps in the " off the shelf" piston options. Curious why you are even considering Egge pistons also because I'm pretty sure they are going to be a cast piston. If that's the case; things like crank girdle, aftermarket rods, 8,000 rpm redlines, and 4.86 or 5.13 rearend gears just don't seem like compatible components. Other things that are confusing me are your statements that "power is not a concern" but "at***ude" is and "it won't see much dragstrip time". As to transmissions. I'm going to guess that Muncie 4 speeds (or replacement parts) don't grow on trees in Sweden regardless of model and with the cost of overseas shipping it would seem (to me) that it would be money well spent choosing a stronger transmission. Signed Confused
As far as I know Egge pistons are cast, and will never hold 8000 rpm. If the 283 is going to play in this area of rpm. you may want to re-think , as DDD said, confused!
Wont get any from me George.Given my druthers I would use 2 AFBs.IME any of it will work if you are willing to put in the necessary time-some are just easier than others
Summit PN for the KB pistons I am using is KB-166-060 Note-last # is oversize so could be -010,020 etc.Check your PMs.The KB pistons,pins,moly rings and locks are a bit over 400 USD.Note- if you are going to run those pistons make certain that you do not run the engine lean and use a large tube (1 3/4) header.If that doesnt make sense buy forged pistons.
Go with forged for a little more piece of mind. I ventilated a block once , had hypers. Yea, they worked great, until one did not!
DDDenny, i understand your confusion! [emoji4] Having a hard time explaning this, but here goes.... main goal for this car is something with a lot of at***ude and somewhat(!) powerful for it's size. Yes, my age is 56 and when i grew up around these cars, the setup i got now was sort of "the sh*t". Camel humps and so forth..... Hard to explain, but i would like to build an engine with "old school" parts and thinking, proving cubes isnt always the best way to go..... i dyno bikes all day long and have a fair understanding regardin fuel and ignition, but is in no way an engine builder and thats why i turn to you guys. In Sweden anything smaller than a 350 always been sneezed at, and i would like to surprise one or two street cars with what an meager 283 is capable of......easy way would obvoiusly be to buy a crate 502 and go from there, but that's not what i want.....so, my wish is to put together a reasonably powerful small engine on a budget that's not off the wall.....and as you mention, parts, and especially older parts, are not readily available over here.... Of course Summit can supply us with newer parts, but thats not my goal with this car....so, perhaps you could understand my reasoning with more at***ude than perhaps power now? What i'm getting at isn't a 9K rpm one of a kind engine, but something that's reasonable reliable and still capable to hold itself against the kids crate 383 Camaros here, if you know what i mean [emoji4] As i said, older "good" parts is hard to come by here, so i would be happy to get what i got working, but i also realize that could be just a dream. Thats where youre experience comes to play. I'm hoping for good advice from you guys that's been there and done that [emoji4][emoji106] Next "problem" is my wish to build a period correct G***er.....don't want newer parts on the car....[emoji53] Ok, Egge....my impression was that they were forged, but of course i could be wrong. Cast is no no on my list, but if they are forged, what about their config? Ok?? Of course my intention is to run forged pistons if possible... Block is never bored and is in service limit on all but one cylinder. No 8 tapers 8/10 mm and it will be bored to what size needed. Also will line hone and deck if necessary... Crank is balanced och crack tested. Rods will be steel aftermarket. Camshaft ***y will be what's needed..... Again, thank you all! If i'm dreaming, tell me!!! [emoji1] Stefan Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Btw, that 9" isn't ***embled yet, and the gears are just parts in the garage as of now.... Any suggestion of more suitable combination? Tires depending on style and availability will be 28-31" high "narrow" slicks.... Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I am not aware of any Egge made pistons that are forged. You can pull a lot of power out of those little engines but you have to turn them very fast to do it and that makes them fragile and not very streetable.I am very fond of 283s but there really is no subs***ute for cubic inches.That being said,build your little engine and enjoy it!
Denny I am not using 1.94" intake valves on my 292.What I got from the OP was he wanted to use his camel hump heads because they were traditional.I am using a set of fully ported L-98 heads with 2" intake valves,the heads are why I never did a build thread on the engine.I have never had any trouble with KB pistons in an engine that was normally aspirated and did not use nitrous oxide.The 1 3\4" tube headers are useful in keeping piston head temperatures down to help the hypereutectic pistons live. Merry Christmas!
I'm a big fan of 283's and think it's cool that you want to build the little engine. Keep in mind that you need to line up parts and plan your build in advance to get the most out of a 283 these days. Many of the parts sold for SBC's these days may not be 283 friendly. Most of the custom piston manufacturers can produce a piston for a 3 7/8 bore motor or you could find an older set of TRW's or SpeedPro forged pistons. They are heavy by today's standards but built like tanks. With a custom piston from a company like CP or JE you can get a piston to fit your bore, desired compression requirement and with a modern ring stack. You will need to source head gaskets for a small bore engine and also keep in mind that heads with 1.94 intake valves were never installed on factory 283's because the small bore hindered flow with a valve that big. Denny's +.060 283 (292) would be on the edge of contacting the cylinder/block deck with a 2.00 valves with a cam of .450 or greater. I have in the past "resized" used 2.02 intake valves to 1.98 to make a well worn pair of 1.94 double hump heads new again.I am no aware of the fuel available in your part of the world but would strive to make a minimum of 10.5:1 compression with a iron head engine and selecting parts that would keep the dynamic compression at 8:1 or greater. As for the Muncie M20 I agree with those that have warned about the future destruction of a unit like that in your application. Again, I don't know what the availability is like in Sweden but I would suggest looking at a "swap" I have had a great deal of success with both Chrysler A833 and Ford Top Loader 4 speeds behind Chevy motors. Not a difficult change to make and both are much more rugged units and gearing is much more suited to your application. I look forward to following your progress
Bore that ****er to a 301 put a set of old style turbo heads on it . Angle mill them to get your compression you want. Stick a solid roller in it. 7 to 8 thousand rpms were done with those motors in modified eliminator cars all the time with no main girdle and 2 bolt mains. If an m-21 Muncie was so weak then why did one hold up in my 396/375 Camaro for years of street racing?
Dblgun I believe the 1.94 intake valve was used on 1960 or 61 corvettes.It was in the FI 283 that was rated at 315 hp.
Just a couple of guesses here! Camaro didn't have a lot of trunk weight/overhang and street tires with no bite. That and maybe some LUCK as I previously mentioned. The Camaro is the only Chevrolet body style I've never owned so I wouldn't say this is gospel but here is some good tech. reading on 4 speeds and oem applications. Manual 4-speed Transmissions M20 was the generic RPO for a 4-speed transmission. For lower performance applications (L6, 307, 327, and L65 350), the Saginaw 4-speed was utilized. It used a cast iron case. For higher performance applications (LM1 350, SS350, big blocks, and Z28) the Muncie 4-speed was used. It used an aluminum case and different gear ratios from the Saginaw 4-speed. The wide-ratio Muncie 4-speed transmission was marketed under RPO M20. The close-ratio version of the Muncie 4-speed was RPO M21 and the heavy-duty close-ratio 4-speed was RPO M22. The wide-ratio Muncie M20 was available with any of the high-performance engines, except the L78 and Z28 in 67 only came with the M21. The M20 was the only 4-speed available with the SS350 and the SS396/325 hp (L35) engines. The close-ratio M21 was available only with the SS396/350 hp (L34) engine and the solid lifter engines (Z28, L78, and COPO). The heavy-duty M22 was limited to just the solid-lifter engines, starting in Camaros in 1968. The Muncie usages are also shown on the ID tables (e.g. the 69 ID table). http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml
Yes, the 61 315hp version used the first design 461 which were seriously shrouded on a stock 3.875 bore as this head head was slated for the all new corvette 327 in 62. Muncie M20 2.52 first gear, M21 2.20 first gear. Time (50 years) has generally not been kind to most of these units. Steel on aluminum case, bearing support and tail shaft housings and a design primarily intended for road racing. If one is set on a Muncie type transmission have at it but consider looking into a unit from AutoGear or Spec-25 if you want "drive it like you hate it"
I guess having enough bite to cause the body to flex enough to crack the windshield doesn't count. Then having to put sub frame connectors in . Just lucky I guess.
Reading and listening to all of you and is thankful for all advices and thoughts!!! As for pistons, well....Egge is out of the question. Looked at AutoTec and they had a set that would work.... Angle mill the heads....well, hade some thoughts about that too...need a good machinist for that. Have to look in to that As for boring to 4"......been thinking a lot of that. Would be the easiest way to go, but as i understand, it's not recommended on the 61-66 blocks? Earlier had thicker walls as i understand it? Gearboxwise, i've been looking at the parts that http://www.5speeds.com/ supplies. Seems to be a knowledgeable guy? Will also look at AutoGear or Spec-25. Hard to know where to turn to from over here Rear end grip? Well...IF i could get it street legal with it, there will be ladders with floaters, otherwise just traction bars. Guess it will have a hard time to hook here on our streets.... :/ dblgun: Fuel is ok here, no problem getting fuel that can withstand "reasonable" comp ratios. My guess is that dynamic 10.5 will be no problem at all. Best we got here in regular pumps is Shell 100 octane. To you, that would equal 93 with your way of measure... Is there adapters readily avaliable for the A833? Those are more common here than the M2x's..... Prices at you is waaaay better than here, but shipping is a real *****....planning on getting a few heavier parts ordered and ship by container eventually....
I've been known to take the easy route (when $$$ was more liquid). The Richmond Super T-10 4 speed transmission is what I put behind my 427 small block. They have gone up in price since then but considering the reliability that I've heard about them they are still the best bang for the buck in my eyes. Summit and Jegs both stock them and Richmond offers them in various gear spreads and applications. It would cost the same to ship an exploded trans as it would cost to ship a brand new one. No adapters needed, just buy the right trans one time and move on, no head scratching.
Sure would be the quickest and easiest way to order a new one.....maybe that will be a solution one day, but as of now, i already got this M20, and will overhaul it with new bearings and synch rings. If it stays together, then all is good and if it don't...well, then i just have to order a new one i guess [emoji6][emoji1] Gears look good and no issues with the case or shafts..... Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
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