You can go to the scrap metal yard and fish it out of the pile yourself...had I known you cared, I would've autographed it for ya...or painted it Piss Yellow to make it easier to spot with aging eyes and a weary mind. 350 Chevy vs Ardun Heads? Yeah...that's a straight line! More like stock 8BA heads, jackass! As for the comment about "identically built" 305 vs 350 results, I never said to build both motors using identical parts...any halfway coherent engine guy knows that they are two different animals, so you play to their individual strengths. I said a 305 and a 350 built with the same budget and along the same guidelines would probably run damn near the same in a real world in-the-car shootout. That is to say...throw out a $1500 budget to build each motor. Limit them to stock head castings with stock valve springs and stock bore/stroke configuration (allowing for .030" overbore if needed, of course). That means you'd have to run a cam that works within the limitations of stock valve springs in each motor...but you wouldn't have to run the SAME cam in each, ya dig? Dial in the intake and carb combo, along with ignition and headers...then go to the track and make ten passes with the 350 in the car, yank it...drop the 305 into the same car and make ten more passes. I bet that whopping 45 cube difference don't mean shit at the end of the day!
Oh yeah...as I mentioned before...the only reason a 305 costs "more" to rebuild is because the pistons and rings cost slightly more...I think you're talking about fifty bucks or less here. (I'll let you in on a little secret, Frank...305s use the same bearings, oil pumps, timing sets, etc as the 350...but if you really wanted to, you could buy "special" 305 parts at a higher cost!!! )
watch out, the tiny combustion chambers on the 305 heads may give you more of a compression ratio than you can handle (depnds on what you have now)
So...if you're gonna cam the 305, and do what it takes to get the power up close to a stock 350, why wouldn't you do the same to the 350 to get the power up higher? that doesn't make sense. You can't win this one....the 305 WILL have less power, if you compare them fairly. The big question is, do you mind giving up the extra power? If you don't mind, then go with the 305.
A friend of mine threw some 10:1 pistons with 58cc heads and an early 327 cam into a mid 80's 305 and made crazy power on pump gas. If you get one of these for free, why not build it? That's a couple hundred bucks that you can spend on go fast instead of a core 350.
I just re-read your original post. You want the engine for a 1950 Sedan. What exactly do you want the 50 sedan to do? Run good, travel at freeway speeds, be economical? If thats all you want, a 305 will do ya fine. If you want to get a bit squirelly, spin the tires, get some rubber, piss off the ricers---then a 305 in stock form would be pretty marginal there. A 350 in stock form would give you that "extra" mojo that us old time rodders like. Free is hard to beat---however, if the engine has to be gone through for a rebuild, then I would say to find a 350 in the same condition that has to be gone thru for a rebuild. You will pay about $350 for a rebuildable 350 longblock from a wreckers. After that expence, it costs about the same to rebuild either motor. So---the answer lays with you---is it worth an extra $350 to you to have that "hot-rod" engine feel or not.
It's all basic math. 305 is 45ci less than a 350. At 1.1 hp/ci on a rebuild is an extra 49.5 hp. So 50 hp for less than $200 is cheap power, i'll spend that extra any day. Granted you could get the same power out of the 305 but it would be more radical than the 350.
Thank you for all the replys and opinions. I'm building the car just to be a cruiser. Reliability is #1. Just a cruiser, back roads ,interstate around town. I was thinking of the 283 or 327 for nostolgia reasons. I did make a few calls and fould a 63-283 $200 and a 69-327 $300.00 2 calls 2 motors. Both said to be rebuildable. So I guess they are more available than I originally suspected. Like I said I'm a while away from the motor in the big scheme of things but was offered this one now for free and wanted to know if it was a good choice or not. Todd
squirrel, Don't try to reason with Fat Hack simple logic is lost on him. Your right if you went to the trouble of camming a 305 why not do the same to a 350. Now we're hearing terms like "almost". and "damn near". Close only counts in horseshoes and handgernades. So what if the 305 takes the same bearings, gaskets, etc. the kit still costs more to build an engine that will put out less hp and torque.Again that "no brainer" rears its ugly head. Put your engine and the 350 in the same car like you suggested and the 305 will lose. BTW, I understand that you don't use IDENTICAL parts when building both engines but the fact remains at the end of the day, without a blower, the 305 comes up short. Now, I hate to change subjects, but this IS relavent. Hack, how is that multi-stroke, multi-displacement, multi-compression ratio hybred you were building coming along? This is probably the time to unleash it and send myself and all of the other naysayers packing with our tails between our legs. Frank
no problem, I'm just trying to clarify it so the others reading this thread can figure out what's going on.
...and a 400 trumps a 350, so what's your point? (Of course...a 454 squishes 'em all, right?) Come on now, if you need to be the biggest dick in the locker room, why stop at a 350? Point is, a 305 rebuild kit* costs $179 vs $153 for the 350 kit (from Powerhouse, according to their current ad). That's a whopping $26 difference there! How much power are you going to give up? Enough to make it worth spending an extra $350 for a 350 (over FREE for a 305!) core to save that $26 and make, what...ten more horsepower or so? *Kit includes: Pistons, rings, oil pump, rod bearings, main bearings, cam bearings, timing set, cam, lifters, gasket set and freeze plugs. Available std, .030", .040" or .060" oversize.
Tpost, What Frank & Squirrel are saying about the 350 is right. It has a 45 cubic inch advantage over the 350 which translates to about 50 horsepower. Unfortunately, more cubes and more horsepower almost always means less mileage. Notice I said almost always. Certain things, like adding compression and reducing friction increase the efficiency of the engine. It's like "free" power in that you're getting more out of your gas, not putting more in. Also, if you build a hot 305 that makes 325hp and a mild 350 to make the same 325hp, the 350 is going to get better mileage because it's going to work at a lower RPM. Revs cost gas too. Some of the other engines you mentioned have thier merits. The 327 for example really likes to rev and would make for a fun drive in a light car like a Nova or Model A. However, it's not going to make as much torque as the 350 and thus wont move a heavy car like your '50 sedan as well. You also mentioned a 283. Here's another place where we're talking about trade-offs. Sure you're going to be down almost 70 cubes from the 350, but if you set it up right, it'll be a mileage maker. Given the fact that you're beating the ground for free and/or cheap cores, I'd wager that mileage is pretty important to you. So it's all a question of what your priorities are and how you want to balance them. To me, a '50 Chev sedan is never going to be a hot rod, so I'd pick up that cruiser 283 and try to dig up an automatic overdrive like the 700R4 or 200R4 to stick behind it. Also, grab that 305 HO... for parts. The heads would work out really well on that 283. As has been mentioned a bunch of times already in this thread, many of the parts interchange through the sbc family. Hope this helps, Ed PS- One other thing to remember about 305's and 307's is that they're death to resale value. Right, wrong, or indifferent, they both have bad reps. PPS- I just built a 350 that I'd guess makes 350 hp. To me it's a good balance of power and economy... but that might not be the same balance for you.
Now theres a FACT nobody can argue no matter if you PREFER a 305/307 over a 350! I've read the 305 HO heads will work on a "street only" 350 because the ports and valves just can't supply the mix for high RPM use...but they still give a good power boost in street trim due to the increase in CR. The HO had a variety of heads during their time with some having just 52cc chambers. Those would be too tight for a flat top 350 in my opinion. (I'm not an engine builder...) The 58cc HO head might work though...especially if you clean up the valve shrouding a little as well and the ports aren't really too bad on the HO compared to the normal wheezy 305 engine heads. The point I'm making is...they just might be the cats ass for a 327 buildup, have hardened seats already and they're free! I had a list of the desirable heads but I can't find the damn thing. Pretty sure the 416 casting is the 58cc HO head and the 601 is the 52cc version. DON'T quote me on that though! I'm sure theres one more...gonna have to hit the dirt track boards to regain the info I guess... "Hey whatcha runnin' man?" some guy asks... "Oh... a high compression HO327..." (Hot Rodder!) "Oh... a 350 Chevy..." (Street Rodder!?!? LoL) "Oh... a 305 Chevy..." (Grocery getter. sigh...) Pick one!!! Hey, I know I said I'd grab the 305 HO and if I used it I could have fun with it in a light car...but I didn't say I would actually CALL it a 305 did I??? hahaha
Ha Ha...that's the fun of it! Everyone just ASSumed the 305s in my old Poncho and Malibu were 350 engines...they certainly beat out many a 350...I just rarely bothered to correct them! (It was REAL cool when most dopes would see the "455ci" lettering on the fenders of my old Pontiac and then take a peek at the 305 under the hood and think it was a 455!) The whole 'secret' to success with a 305 is to be a little bit conservative. Pick the right cam, intake, carb, ignition, headers and heads...and you'll have a motor that would fool ANYONE from the driver's seat...and that's a FACT! (It'll run just like a mild 350...and if you don't tell, they'll never know!) But like Frank tells everyone...I don't shit. I musta had a big block Chevelle PUSHING my old 305 powered bracket racers down the track or something...maybe my mind and memory are getting as scrambled as his?!?
No...it won't run as hard as a mild 350. As stated by someone earlier...a 350 will munch it for lunch, given the same style mods. Against a tuned but stock 350 it would compare but once you play with the 350 too your dead in the water with a mild 305. I'm saying it can be FUN, but you need to know it will have limitations going in IF your concern is acceleration. I don't feel the need for maximum speed much anymore so I could play with a mild 305 and have some fun. You'll get good service from one and mild hopup parts are easy to find...BUT if the need for speed came back I'd grab the 350 without glancing back at the 305. The thing is...I DON'T feel maximum acceleration in the quarter mile is really what this thread is about. Some guys are happy cruisin' and playin' with factory stovebolts in those cars...
Yea, Frank has got a problem alright. One of them is NOT changing the subject whenever the kitchen heats up. No one, least of all me, ever suggested that your old bracket car had a big block. In fact if it did you should REALLY be ashamed of it's performance. Big blocks are only for those who are serious about going fast not bragging on an internet message board about how you cleaned everyone's clock with a 305 . Real people in the real world know better. Speaking of "failing to step up" how about addressing my previous request for an update on the "two engines in one" thread you started with such gusto awhile back. Is it going to get buried along with the PROMISED buildup on the killer 305? Surely all of the requests you get for engine tech include at least a couple of inquiries about these past "giant killers". Frank
Several years ago my dad had a 305 professionally rebuilt for his Willys sedan which he later sold, so he was left with this brand new engine just sitting. I ended up buying it to replace the worn out 327 in my chevelle(not forever just for now). Anyway it was bored .030 over so it now displaces 310 ci. has TRW forged pistons and was balanced. The compression ratio is 10:1. It has a mild cam, stock heads, edelbrock intake, and a Q-jet. Honestly it runs better than the 327 it replaced which had about 9:1 compression, same valve sizes, same cam, manifold, carb. This engine came out of a 77 camaro, and it runs way harder than the same engine setup in my sisters old 77 camaro. Compression makes a big difference, stockers had dished pistons from that era. I am looking at upgrading the heads but other than that I am very pleased with the way it runs, also gets much better mileage than the old 327. They basically make two different heads for the 305, mine have 1.71 intake valves while later heads in the 80's have 1.84 intake valves which is what I'm looking for right now. My point is they are fine engines if you are not looking for a ton of power. Next month I'll be running mine at the drags if anyone wants E.T. information later. If anyone in my neck of the woods ever starts giving away 305 parts I will gladly take them.
Something for the Slide-Rule Wizards to work on: My old 77 Malibu four door bracket racer ran in the 14.90s with a very mild 305...in a 3500+ pound, all steel car with 2.73 rear gears and a stock torque converter. The engine had over 100,000 miles on it before I started playing around with different bolt-ons. In the end, it ran a 350/300hp cam, a Holley 600 with electric choke, Edelbrock Performer intake, K&N stub stack, HEI Supercoil, Accel wires, Competition Cams Magnum roller tip rocker arms, headers and a plastic 'flex' fan in place of the stock clutch type. Now...if that combo pushed that heavy terd to 14.90s in the 1/4 mile with the 2.73 gear...how much power did it make? (I don't know, but I'm sure someone will have a formula or program to tell us). Okay...what if that exact same engine found it's way into a Model A weighing, oh...let's say 2500 pounds with maybe a 3.08 rear axle and a Saturday Night Special converter from TCI?
By the way, Frank...the 305 project you refer to is still 'ON' if you really care, which I know you don't. I got the crank and a line on a 305 block locally. There's another engine project ahead of it right now, but that's for someone else. As everyone can see by this thread, there is a wealth of ignorance surrounding the lowly Chevy 305 engines, and that's fine, really. Go ahead and spend $350 to save $26 and build a 350...ain't nobody gonna know the difference in the "real world" anyhow...but it's your money! (The $324 I don't have to spend buying a magical 350 core will go along way towards making up the ten horsepower difference!!!)
I have seen some good street buildups of the 305. The earlier stock heads flow horrible, the later ones like on the TPI camaros flow a little better. They have crazy little combustion chambers that will boost compression numbers, but won't allow for big valves. The head's intake ports and the cylinder's bore are the Bottlenecks in these engines. They will lower your HP ceiling, but in a light car, or one that will only see occasional stoplight racing, they can be a very practical choice. I am always for building something on the cheap, and I wouldn't pass up on a freebie 305; however, I will say that I probably wouldn't put it in a '50 (I would probably line those cylinders up 6-in-a-row).
Interesting proposal Hack Well, lets see. Your saving a 1000 lbs., that's a second. But with no weight on the rearend it's going to be a little touchy to get out of the hole (hard to drive it out without going up in smoke and if you aren't on it hard enough it will bog big time. The converter isn't going to help you much in fact it could aggrivate the problem already stated. Lets give the converter .2-.3 of a second. With luck the combo should run low 13's. That's giving you a generous .5 second just because your "the man" If that's enough to make your pee-pee tingle go for it. Frank BTW, If your spending $300-$350 for a 350 core I've got some beach property in Nebraska I'd like you to look at. Another thing, most engines last at least 50,000 miles so that's way less than a penny a mile for the core. I'll take that HUGE hit in the pocketbook any day to have a superior powerplant. In reality it would be much less than that.
Hey, someone else on here set the value of a rebuildable 350 core at $350...and it's commonly known that since 305s are pure junk, you can get them for FREE! Personally, I wouldn't pay more than $100 for any small block Chevy, running or not. Too many of them out there to make any ONE valuable. I think the "two engines in one" needs to be EIGHT engines in one...with rubber connecting rods for that "variable stroke" thing you mentioned a while back! That would be neat...just whip that piston up into the combustion chamber...further as rpm increases, even! The compression rises as you rev it! Every cylinder gets bored to a different size...weld a few cranks together to make one with a plethora of strokes, random valve sizing from cylinder to cylinder and maybe run the left bank on half of a TPI set-up with four carbs getting the other side fed! 305s owe me nothing...I always got more than my money's worth out of every one! These days, though...shit, I'd rather run a V6 than a 350!!
That's still a go, Buddy! I got a crank and a good 305 block lined up locally. The pistons are those prohibitively expensive 305 pistons that cost thousands of dollars more than the 350 pistons they give away at the supermarket along with sandwich spread on crackers, but what the heck, you only live ONCE, right? Might as well splurge!! Rings are also the high dollar 305 ones that price 305 rebuilds right outta the ballpark with guys like you, so I may have to talk to the bank about a loan...but when they get a load of all the breathtaking advancements in engine design and development that this project will bring unto Mankind, how can they say NO???
Jump in your time machine. Set the controls for a time way back when a Chevy dealer sold a pickup with either engine. Take the red one for a test drive, then do the same with the truck next to it. Anybody could tell which one had the 350.
the thing is, a 305 is a cheap engine, so treat it like one. i got one i'm throwing together for a cheap rod, had nice virgin bores, so i just gave it a freshening up, bearing and new higher compression pistons, and a bigger cam. probably find some HO heads for it cause i threw away the stockers. total build will be maybe $500 total. now if i was to build a 350 for the same car, i'd feel like i should step it up a notch, spend a few hundred more on machining, better quality pistons, some vortec or aftermarket heads....next thing you know its a several thousand dollar engine. it all depends on your goals. build it as a disposable engine, and you won't be disappointed. try to be king of the hill with it, and you will be let down.
Man this brings back memories......... memories of when my 2 daughters used to sit at the dinner table and argue over who held the pom pom right at cheerleader workout that day Fred
45 CI is not 50 HP. the 1.1 HP/CI "rule" thrown out earlier in the post is not accurate. No factory 350 since the earily 70's has made 350 HP. Even the Gen II LT1 was only ever rated at 270 flywheel HP in the Camaro's Let's look at some late model FACTORY numbers. Specifically, we'll compair the very common 91-93 LO3(305) and LO5(350) TBI motors. L03 5.0L (305ci) EFI HP 170@4200 TQ 255@2400 L05 5.7L (350ci) EFI HP 195@4400 TQ 295@2400 There's a whopping 25 HP difference. He's stated that his primary concern is reliability, not speed. A 305, with all it's understressed parts will EASILY go 250,000 miles, many hit 300,000 before needing a rebuild. Even a used 305 will still most likley have many miles left in it before it needs a rebuild. Plus, it's free. You can't beat free.
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