The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

It's definitely like no other. Can you post some overall pics? I want to see if there are some unique traits to it.

 

I questioned it myself. There are no sharp parting lines anywhere and the cheeks of the rod throws have been ground like most forgings.
I haven't given it the ring test but I will.

Having said all that, I believe that it is a forging. maybe Beck could post some pictures of a cast crank.
I'll check mine further and let you k now what I find.

 

I spent some time today talking with Steve Lowe, the owner of LSM. Got a nice tour of the shop, too.

Here is what learned;

LSM has made roller cams for the 3.7 Mercruiser in the past. He did not disclose to me who the customer was or any specifics about the cams. He did say that they were made to accommodate 55 mm roller bearings on the bearing journals.
Cams are made from 8620 steel unless otherwise specified. Tool steel cams are available but approximately double the cost of 8620. They are made on CNC lathes, mills and grinders. They grind the cams to final shape from computer generated lobe designs. There are no masters involved. He said he can recommend cam profiles based on the parameters of the engine and application. Cams would have distributor drive gear.

Pricing for cams:
One - 4 approx. $2500. Price for one is the same as four.
Quantities of 4-6 approx. $600 -$800 ea. These can have different profiles and LCAs.
Price gets better with quantity.
He can and would make rough blanks for quantities and hold them for finishing as needed.
Initial order would take 8 - 10 weeks. If blanks were in stock, 1 week turn around.

His recommendations:
Roller bearings on bearing journals. LSM can bore blocks for the 55 mm bearings.
Make the cams to work with common pieces i.e. if using BBF crank sprocket make cams for BBF cam sprocket.
Consider using timing belt rather than chain.

Other services we may want or need:
Face back of block 5/8"
Offset bore cam hole to eliminate tensioner and/or optimize lifter to cam angle
Bore and bush lifter holes
Seal front of block for timing belt
Offset grind crankshaft

What we need to supply:
One block
One Crankshaft
One camshaft
One timing set
This is to verify that the specifications of the cams on file are indeed for the engine we are discussing. And, that the oil passages are located correctly to allow the roller bearings. Finally, that the front of the cam is designed to work with common components.

Here is what I propose:
Anyone interested in pursuing this further email me at my business address
quickchangeexchange@gmail.com

This will allow me to forward you documents that ask about camshaft needs. These cannot be sent via HAMB conversations. I will compile these and get them to LSM.

Also, be prepared to send me $600 for each cam you want to order. I'm not going to take up his or my time with tire kickers. When I have deposits for at least 6 cams, I will take him the engine pieces he needs. Understand that the cams could cost more but I won't order one for you at more than $600 unless you agree to that at the time.
If we can get enough interest to have him make extra blanks, I will pass on any cost savings to you.

Anyone that has reservations about my integrity and persistence in getting a project like this done, please read the link about the Quickchange side plates below. If you still don't trust me on this, then please don't get involved.

Once we get this started, we need to make sure everyone that might have interest in this has the information. This means other forums that you might frequent like Inliners International, Ford BBC sites etc. I'm sure that the demand for these is somewhat limited but I am amazed at the number of guys that have interest in things like this.

 

I have one just like this with only the last four numbers visable,, it is steel for sure. I have three of these engines, and only one has the steel crank. I would like to get shed of these engines if anyone is interested. PM me. Earl

 

Thinking.

Thanks for spending time with LSI. A lot of good input.

Craig

 

Bench racing - or worse, bench designing.

A few posts back the vertical vibration was described. It is twice the crankshaft speed and affected by piston weight and stroke and rod length. I know some import fours (Porsche maybe) have a counterweighted shaft to counter vibration.

So, for these motors, could a eccentricly weighted camshaft be designed to offset some of the vertical vibration? It would need two weights per revolution I guess.

Just thinking out loud really.


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4 cyl. balance shafts are 2 counter rotating shafts. Otherwise you have just introduced a horizontal vibration.

 

Yeah sounded too simple. Thanks


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I know Mitsubishi industrial engines come in balanced and unbalanced designs. I am thinking they have two counter rotating shafts.

 

Hey guys I just came across 2 engines that i might pick up tomorrow. They are complete engines. If i get them would anyone here want to buy either the cranks or the cams out of them? Or anything else? I really just want the blocks. Id be willing to sell a whole motor if you guys wanted to figure out how to get the motor from San Diego. Just PM me if anyone is interested.

 

Scratch that last post. Stuff came up and we are no longer getting the engines.

 

Okay guys, we need commitments for 6 cams, minimum, to start the process. I have verbal for 3. If we can't get 6 the cost becomes prohibitive.
Here are the parameters:
Cams will be 8620 steel, roller tappet only
Any reasonable lift, duration and LSA
Can be standard bearing journals or ground for roller bearings
Will have a common cam drive set-up (Most likely 460 Ford)

You can order a finished cam, a roughed in core, or blanks to be finished (at no extra charge) for when you are ready.
LSM will hold the blanks for you and you just order to suit. The cams do not all have to be alike.

The target price is $600. It could go as high as $800 but that would be known before the cams are made, giving you a chance to withdraw from the order.

I don't think you are going to find a deal any better than this.
So, step up!
If we can get enough interest to get started, I may be able to buy and stock some blanks for the future.

 

I'm in for one.

 

I have been considering a different method to reduce the bellhousing depth on our 470 motors. If anyone sees issues with what I am about to propose please state them. I am not 100% on this yet.

The standard has been to machine the back of the motor off. The back of the motor has a thicker flange on it. When the motor has 5/8” removed from it the rear face becomes pretty thin. I don’t know that this is a problem, but it concerns me. The shorter bolt engagement into the block concerns me also.

My thought is to shorten a bellhousing. I expect I will need to swap motors occasionally. If I have one bellhousing shortened I will never need to shorten any motor in the future that I want to install.

My motor will be used in competition and I have been convinced I need something stronger than a factory GM bellhousing in case of clutch failure.

First I saw an ad for McLeod modular bellhousings. Unfortunately I discovered that these bellhousings are out of production. There was a # 8710-11 that would fit the 470 motor and my transmission choice. I have not seen this actual part. These modular housings were made with a spacer plate in them to accommodate different input shaft lengths. My hope was this plate was ½” thick. They also had a motor plate which I expect was 1/8” thick. Removal of those 2 parts would give us the right length. This got me thinking about the shortened bellhousing.

Moving forward I am considering buying a bellhousing and removing the 5/8”.

Speedway sells one for $300. It doesn’t appear to be the highest quality, but it is affordable to start cutting on. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Chevy-Ford-Steel-Bellhousing-,83573.html?sku=91027001&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CKCqw47ZwtICFRO1wAodp1YOHQ

Quicktime RM-6020 is a nicer one at a higher price at $535. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qti-rm-6020

Since I am being super weight conscious I am considering using the aluminum McLeod 8533 for $775. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-8533

Each of these bellhousings has a flat section near the motor flange. My thought is to mark the bellhousing with 3 lines. Two will be accurate scribed marks 5/8” marks. The third will be centered between them. I plan to cut on the center mark with a cut off wheel or plasma cutter. Each half will then be paced on a mill and material removed to it’s 5/8” mark. After machining when the 2 pieces are placed back together they should be the correct total height.

I have made some bushings to fit into the main bearings on a bare block. These bushings are the OD of the crank and 1.5” ID. I have made similar bushings to replace the bearings on my transmission. The OD is that of the transmission bearings and the ID is 1.5”. The block will be stood on it’s nose. In the block main bearing bushings a 1.5” diameter shaft will be installed. The front half of the bellhousing will be bolted on. The rear half of the bellhousing will be installed on the transmission. The transmission will then be placed on the 1.5” shaft protruding from the motor. The 1.5" shaft will pass completely through everything. Now everything should be true and the 2 pieces of the bellhousing can be welded back together. The steel ones would be easier to weld than the aluminum one. The Speedway bellhousing appears to be MIG welded in the photos. The Quicktime part is rolled steel and just the transmission plate is welded on. Using the McLeod aluminum bellhousing will require TIG welding, but will save me over 10 pounds. Modification of any bellhousing will void any ratings. To be SFI rated the bellhousing has to have a motor plate. That would be very difficult on a 470 motor since the flywheel is directly in line with the rear of the motor. The motor plate would have to have a step in it.

This process seems more difficult than machining off the back of the block, but it allows other motors to be installed without further machine work.


What do you think? Is it worth the effort?

 

What does it cost to merely mill off 5/8ths from all your blocks? This presupposes that you'll take apart all your motors enough for this mill step.

What about some sort of 5/8ths internal extension between the motor and trans, moving the flywheel back that much? Maybe machines from aluminum?


BFC

 

Before I would do all that work, I would consider making a special long pilot bushing. The end of the crank will have to be drilled for one anyway. You could drill it deep enough to ensure that there was more in than out of the crank. I haven't done any measurements, but it seems that this might work.
I know that you aren't using a T5 but I understand that the pilot shaft is longer on the Ford transmission than the Chevrolet version. Don't know if this helps you or not.

 

I have been able to locate the Tilton bellhouse on ebay for the 200.00 range. It's magnesium and uses the Tilton slave cyclinder. Very light and good for 1000hp. When you start playing with bellhouse dims it really screws up the pressure plate to slave tolerance. I know on my Tilton stuff it's very improtant these things are perfect.

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The two dowels are the most important part of the engine/ trans coupling. The meat at that location is most important.

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I think your idea is well thought out and will work as the alignment is properly done.

I would prefer a steel bellhousing as there is little control of what the alloy will be when welding aluminum. Although the steel when stamped into shape could have locked in stresses that may change the shape of the cut bellhousing, milling it would take care of that problem.

Bolt engagement length has not been a problem for me. Minimum engagement can be calculated from internet information. A hard bounce onto the ground would load the lowest bolts in tension. Other than that the load is in shear and the dowel pins carry most of that.

Is it worth the effort? yes, if there will be several engines on this bellhousing. Besides, it will be interesting to do.

 

I will try to address some concerns in order,

BFC, Moving the flywheel back also moves the starter ring. After spacing the flywheel the starter ring would no longer mesh with the starter. A custom flywheel could be made, but that is above me.

GearheadsQCE, Extending the pilot bushing would work for the input shaft alignment, but will the clutch disc be completely on the splined part of the input shaft? If so I think that is the best solution. My transmission is a Doug Nash 2 speed quick change. It has the same front dimensions as a Saginaw 3 or 4 speed. It is an early version of this http://eliteracingtransmissions.com/categories/inline-gearboxes-sub-menu/f1-2sd/

Scott, Removing the 5/8" actually brings the alignments back to where they are supposed to be. Before shortening there is too much space in there. I would be removing in the bellhousing what Mercruiser put too much of in the motor. Which Tilton bellhousing are you using. Many of those are for small diameter clutches. I plan to run a 10".

dennis g, My transmission doesn't have a mount on it. The rearmost mount in the vehicle will be from a rear motor plate. I expect a lot of stress on the mounting bolts. That puts my top mounting bolts in stress on a hard bounce, which this will see. Do you think helical inserts would make the 470 bellhousing area stronger or weaker? Those are usually not super long.

Thanks for the input guys... Keep it up.

 

Here's a bellhouse that might solve your issue. It uses a rear mount starter. As for the 7.25 clutch... It's 3 disk, very light and easily handles 1000hp +++
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TILTON-SONI...ash=item3adc49de4c:g:7rIAAOSwWxNYwF40&vxp=mtr

 

You could also do somthing like this where you use a regular flex plate and stack a button flywheel on it. Your spacer with pilot (Much thinner now) would go in the middle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-302-V8...ash=item58eef8218f:g:1k8AAOSwpdpVb9RP&vxp=mtr

 

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/

 

Been salivating on these.... Good price for pairs.
http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/html/kaase_p-51_-_big_block_ford_wedge_cylinder_heads.html

 

I don't think that clutch would hold up. It is for a lot of HP but those don't tolerate slipping at all. My application pretty much demands high slippage at launch. Those clutches are more like an ON/OFF switch. During NASCAR pit stops this type clutch is what mandates tire spin leaving the pits.

It is odd that you posted this I was on the phone with a couple of manufacturers of this style clutch today. I was looking at the 7.25" versions. They all said the same thing - no slipping allowed. Many of the circle track guys winch their cars onto the trailer because of these clutches. There are more burned up in the pits than on the track.

I was looking at this setup. It is more expensive, magnesium and I think it is for the bigger clutch. I want to stay with the block mounted starter. http://www.ebay.com/itm/122358684941?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I am seriously considering this style setup and just dumping the clutch to launch. After considering cutting up a $750 bellhousing as I talked about above I am changing my mind.

 

They do make organic clutch discs.

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Yeah, thats a nice unit.

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You need that same flywheel I found.

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I think the Boss 9 is a little cooler