10% Ethanol at the pump????

you too huh?

i've been slowly getting my riv ready to put boost to a stone stock long block, that means the stock 60's cast pistons @ 10.5:1. i plan to try running E85 when i get to that point. i've read about a few people that have tried it with high compression or blown motors and had good luck with it not detonating. i dunno, i guess i'll see. i was talking to a drag racer neighbor this weekend, he wrote a college paper on ethano fuels, he says they make E98 as well, even better but harder to get. right now in my town there is only one station that carries E85, and that's all the way across town but, hey what's a little drive to get the gas that will make power without grenading the motor?

it seems all the people that ***** about it causing running problems are people running super lean smogged out 80's rides. they're probably on the ragged edge of lean, so they NEED a rejetting to work on it, most of our old heaps are running quite rich and should do fine right off.

 

My daily driver is an old, mostly orignal 54' bel air, that hasnt had an engine rebuild in at least 15 years, if ever.

Seems like this stuff is gonna be a pain in my ***. I wouldent mind it if I was savin money at the pump, but if its the same price, their makin more money, I dont have a choice, and it makes more work for me; then that just rubs me the wrong way. For the most part all I drive is low buck old stuff, and usualy with plent of miles on em'... I just really hope not all the stations go to it...

 

Around here 10% is about all you can get, except for E85. I have used it in everything with no problems. Even 2 stroke engines work well with it.
Yes, it will clean the crud and varnish out of the fuel system. Yes, it will eat most tank sealers. Yes, it will damage older rubber parts and some rubber/cork gasket materials. The hard paper type gaskets, newer rubber, cork or ones with the little red line of plastic should be fine. New rubber lines should live, too.

 

I want to know what you nailhead guys find out after running E85...How soon you gonna be running 'em?

 

As soon as they get a pump near me. I have freshly rebuilt 425 with the original 10.5:1's and a slightly milled head waiting... I'm not paying $3.00 a gallon to run that thing right now....

 

Computer cars hate it also unless they are programmed to run it. I guess it helps the corn farmers out, we seem to have corn and wheat in a monster surplus and that makes the stuff just about worthless.

I don't see it being that environmentaly friendly you're still burning fossil fuel just watered down.

Its the worse of both worlds, you have to retune to run a gas motor on it and you can't run an alchy motor on it either.
Its kinda like a mermaid, not enough woman to love and too much fish to eat.

 

it's gonna be a few months for me probably, though i'd love to go down and try a few gallons of it soon...if i could find my box of jets so i can rejet when i do, dammit.

smalltownspeed: i think you're worrying to much about the 10%. it ain't gonna ruin your car or anything! the stuff has been everywhere for decades, the only problem is usually with ancient pumps and hose, which if that old should be replaced anyway. for every person that *****es that they had some problem, there is a hundred that have been using 10% and having no problem, most people can switch between the two and not even tell. and as far as them making more money, that's a few bucks going into good ol americans pockets, as opposed to relying so heavily on foreign oil, if not for that 10% being used in some gas, it ALL would cost more.

 

"if you run ethanol you are a no good long hair tree hugging hippie."

Yeah, now that it's getting nice out I can hardly wait to get into my Birkenstocks...and hot rod T shirts.

 

ok heres one for the folks with a little more E85 knowledge. theres actually a few places within 30 or so miles of me that are now selling it. here's gonna be one to throw for ya and yes it involves the much loed/hated here on the board vw. ok so everyone says that the E85 burns cooler. i was justcurious if i would possibly see any benefit in running it in an air cooled vw. my '63 bug should be back on the road soon. it's running a 1641 single port(for more torque) i haven't driven the car much but it is running a tad rich now. of course as anyone who has ever owned an air cooled knows anything that may help run any amount cooler is desirable. so with that said would i have any problems running the E85 in it? is it like the 10% ethanol and will eat rubber parts? all new fuel lines are going on soon any how as i don't know when the last time they were changed was and it's a common upkeep on a vw. i haven't tried to find out what the places near me are getting per gallon as basiclly everything that i own that would be compatible is down right now, including the buick so yes i'm interested in the nailhead performance results with it. still as i said there's several stations within 30 or so miles of me. something i'd really like to look into. so i know some here hate vw's but opinions on the use of E85 in an aircooled would be great...ken....

 

I haven't tried the E 85 yet so I can't comment on that but I can prove that the 10% stuff is just like I said watered down gasoline. I've been stuck with it more than once and its always lowered my fuel milage and torque.

Drop Ravin61 a note and ask him he was in the Pusher when we got stuck with 10% he witnessed the milage drop and the loss of power.

As for the E 85 I'll still have to rejet at the very least to use it, it takes 3 times as much alcohol to run a motor as gasoline. Guess that's not a big deal except I travel in my ride, not just to the hot dawg stand or the local cruise. So what do I do carry extra jets and stop and rejet every time I can't get the E 85? Sounds cool if all you do is toodle around town.

I probably shouldn't get political but someone should mention that we are not dependent on foreign oil. It has to do with world economics, we are going to buy the stuff wether we use alcohol or not. We haven't even begun to tap our domestic reserves.

Well off the soapbox,
carry on.

 

IMHO the biggest issue with switching to E85 is making sure you are jetted right, i'd be reluctant to "just try it" and jet it by trial and error. i think an important tool for the switchover is access to a shop that has an o2 meter. i picked up my own wideband o2 a while back, so i can get a few gallons and spend a day rejetting and see what happens. tell you what, being there are at least a couple of people interested, i''ll try to pick up a few gallons as soon as i can find my jets and post my results here.

 

what will you be running it in? i look forward to the results of your test - Doug

 

Haven't tried it but it should work fine. E85 is just alcohol with enough gasoline thrown in to make it easy to fire. Like any fuel it should burn hotter with a lean mixture so you'll want to feel it out before you just run it. You may need to richen up a little more but then again if you're already rich you could be close. Production cars manage to switch back and forth between fuels with the O2 sensor and powertrain computer, you won't be able to do that with a carburetor. Cars with knock sensors can also take advantage of the extra octane to minimize the hit from reduced energy content per gallon. Yes, it will eat old rubber parts but this stuff has been around long enough that carb kits, fuel hose, and other parts are now made from stuff that isn't a problem. Chances are any gasket, seal, or hose that's been around long enough to be affected is probably old enough to be replaced.

How cool would it have been years back to say you're running an alcohol-burning race engine on the street?

 

whare are you getting your info from? 3 times the fuel as gasoline? no ****ing way. 20-40% more fuel is what most people are experiencing. i guess it should be stated too, some of us aren't willing to try the e85 for "cheap gas", i'm doing it cause i'm building a high compression high power motor that will NEED higher octane than pump gas, i do not want to spend the big bucks on race gas for a street car, e85, even if it uses 50% more fuel than gasoline, is still a helluva lot cheaper than race fuel. it's not going to be put in every car i have(half a dozen) it's going in the one car that needs it and is unlikely to be driven cross country. nobody is saying it will replace gasoline tomorrow in all of our cars.

and YES, 10% CAN make a car lose power, because it was already tuned lean! the slight increase in fuel needed by the 10% ethanol was not accounted for, the car went MORE lean and you lose power, a modern computer controlled engine has no problem accounting for the change, a carbed engine that is already very lean will need some tuning, but MOST carbed cars are tuned on the rich side, so the slight leaning out from the 10% will not be noticed.

and all i'll do is laugh at your political comment, hahaha!

 

If E85 is 100+ octane why would you have to retard the timing? Wouldn't you be able to leave the timing the same or put a little more into it?

 

I would have to say it would be more harmful to components that aren't alcohol friendly... that said you can crank up the compression and increase the jetting about 20% retard the timing a bit and roll until something gives...

Uhhh.. three times as much? uhhh.. ********.. more like 20%, and that is in a flex fuel car, if the car is set up for E85 you should see slightly less than that... You can run higher compression and it runs cooler... You have to re-time it as well as the alcohol burns at a different rate and you need to compensate for it. The easiest way to do it is with fuel injection and engine management. That way you can run multiple maps. But with a single carb motor it would be easier to have another carb set up for it and an MSD box on the ignition.

 

burn rate is different...

 

What would this stuff do to those polyethylene (plastic) gas tanks in a lot of cars? (Or the one I keep my lawnmower gas in, for that matter?)

I have no problem with heading towards ethanol/E85/etc., but if it's gonna hurt my MPG-- even minimally-- I'll be pissed if I'm having to pay the same per gallon. Especially if we're now dealing with a renewable resource.

 

When I get in my car for some reason I just dont care about fuel economy, shopping for cheaper price, babying it around slowly. It must be the soul in the car. Its a hot rod.

 

I think he was talking about straight alky, in reference to why thinning it with alcohol makes it less efficient. stoich for gaso is 14.7 and e85 is 9.7 i think. 15% of the fuel and you need to increase consumption by 35%. straight alcohol has a stoich of 4.9 iirc. burns cooler as well. its esp hard to tune when your fuel keeps changing back and forth.
it has been done, who has dyno time for free?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=795381&highlight=e85

 

Yes but then e85 is around 106 octane, hence the increased compression you can run which then levels the playing field a bit more. I've been working with 9.8 for e85 so it's still close... Like I said the easiest way to deal with it is fuel injection. I'll probably go ahead and put together another Mega-Squirt system to run it so I can tune it on the go... Not very traditional I know but it won't look to bad....

 

Actually Ray you're right. I know absolutely nothing about building and running a car on alcohol. And I surely do run my motors lean, I don't know anything about hot rodding either. that's why I'm on the HAMB in the first place so I can find someone to build a car for me.

 

I read this thread down to here and didn't see a word about the real reason for alcohol in fuel. The EPA mandated a percentage of the fuel sold had to have an "oxygenating agent" included in its formulation. The fuel companies went along because they thought they were going to sell tons of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. California jumped on the MTBE bandwagon because they claimed ADM, a midwest grain alcohol producer, was sticking it to them. Turns out MTBE is a major pollutant and has caused serious ground water problems already. It's been pulled from the market and grain alcohol is the only current oxygenator. By the way, the alcohol will eat the glue in cork matrix gaskets so if you have any of those in your fuel line, change them. They were the sediment bowl gaskets on my flathead fuel pumps and were the cause of many problems when the pump started ****ing air.

 

I have run 15% Ethanol mix for 20 years in all vehicles, lawnmoweres,cycles etc with no ill effects. Mileage has never been and issue.

I have been runnin E85 for a year in my 2000 Ranger at 1.24-1.85(todays price) with no ill effects. Mymileage is damn near the same with unleaded as it is with E85.

Once I get moved out to the new homestead, I am going to start running my 54 Chevy and my 348 with E85. The 54 has a poly tank that will handle ethanol, the T an aluminum one. Both cars have decent compression and hi quality Gates hoses that can handle alky.

Look at it this way, the farmers are paid to not grow corn and other crops, I would just as well see the same subsidies put to use for E85 than to let the land set idle.

I love E85, there is a group out here working on making fuel out of pine s**** and pulp, leftovers from logging and manufacturing.

 

dammit, i am just going to drink lots and lots of tequila and just piss in my own gas tank...that way i know there will be the right amount of **** in the fuel to get me down the road.

 

So..... will E85 have any effects on floats or needle and seat set ups? Id like to try it in my 472, It needs help running cooler!

 

I don't like having **** force fed to me. For good or bad reasons, it makes the hair on the back of my next stand up.
It's about choices and our choices are being decided by others.
No voting, just the ol "It's for your own good and the good of the planet".
Hopefully, I'll be told how to run the rest of my life soon so I don't F it up. Lord knows I can't be trusted to think for myself...

 

hey, all i did was ask you to back up you ***ertion that E85 would require 3 times the volume of fuel. methanol and ethanol are not the same thing, nobody here is talking about methanol so why confuse the issue with data that is not relevant?

 

How is this stuff going to affect the my fuel cell?

 

It was on the national news tonight that ethanol is FEDERALY mandated this year , and there is a shortage of ethanol and a way to transport it.
That is one reason gas is going up.
Here in Minnesota we have to run it for years now.