F1 steering vs. Model A steering in an AV8? Opinions?

I know a few of you out there have AV8's and may have converted your steering to an F-1 box and column. I have a 1930 Ford and the stock steering not only gets in the way, but is totally inadequate for the flathead weight. Has anyone used an F-1 box? Would it fit inside a stock frame? Anyone have dimensions of one, with the bolt spacing and mounting flange measurements? Pictures? Also, is anyone using the stock Model A steering in their V8-powered cars? Can anyone recommend something easier, or better? Thanks.

Adam

 

There are a multitude of options for steering boxes; the F-1 box is the 'purist' hot-rodder upgrade for an AV8.

Advantages:

Recirculating ball steering is lighter
higher numeric ratio = lower effort.

Disadvantages:

F-1 box is larger than Model A box
Frame hole has to be enlarged
F-1 boxes are getting expensive.

Alternates:

Corvair box (kinda rare and getting pricey)
Vega box (small & cheap)

There are companies which can provide a rebuilt Vega box pretty reasonable.

As for getting in the way...a Model A box is about as small as you're gonna see; the worm and sector setup can work well if it's PROPERLY rebuilt and adjusted, but it's not gonna compare to P/S.

I'll see about pulling the dimensions on the F-1 swap tomorrow...unless someone beats me to it.

 

Find the book "How to build a traditional Ford hot rod" by Vern Tardel and Mike Bishop, super helpful. The swap is pretty common, and there's a good reason. It fits and works so well it almost feels stock. I like it more then the Vega and Corvair boxes because it gives your rod a more traditional look and feel.

 

If you cut the snout off the A box, and put it on the F1 box, you don't have to modify the frame at all, looks stock, bolts right up.

The column will pass thru the firewall a few inches lower than stock, and you will need to fill the notch in the firewall.

Good luck,

Rich

 

I Have run the last 2 with vegas. Now that I built my roadster with a F1 box I will never go back. Steers like a cadillac for a hotrod

 

The later '53-'56 F100 box will fit an A chassis, with some trimming of the mounting flange, and possibly a washer or two for shims. But no welding involved, which is a big plus (and you don't have to cut up that original box, either, just in case!).

If you have access to a Vintage Ford Speed Secrets magazine (July 2004), this has a nice feature on this installation (hmmm, guess it's not a secret anymore?). I have a scan of this somewhere that someone sent me before I got hold of a copy, so if you PM me your email I could send it to you.

The only point I would make is that the feature (and the magazine) is about using four-banger motors, so you may still have clearance issues.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks a lot everyone, I appreciate all the help and hints. I would like the dimensions of the F-1 and F-100 boxes if anyone has them, I have been looking everywhere and can't find them...books, internet, etc.

 

Oh yeah, also forgot to mention...I will be moving the steering back a couple inches from the stock location so I will have a little extra room. As it sits now, the header tube is hitting the column so I had to put a slight dent in the header tube and a small notch in the column.

Adam

 

This is interesting, as I've got an early 60's F100 box an column, and was going to put that in my A, I logged on to put up a post requesting advice or pics......

I guess that still stands

Outback

 

hey adam...vern tardel actually makes a book specifically about f-1 boxes.how to modify them,what year boxes to look for and how to identify them,install,maintenance,etc. i run an f-1 box done the tardel way,and it steers one-handed standing still like it's on a stack of marbles.i think the booklet is about 7 bucks. good luck-nate

 

http://www.verntardel.com/catalog/chassis.html

 

Excellent, thanks all. The problem I am having is at the last header tube. I am using Sanderson Limefire's(lake style) and the last tube comes almost straight out from the flange. About 2.5 inches from the flange, I had to dimple that last tube to fit over the column, as well as notch the column. The distance between the frame and motor isn't the problem, it's the actual height of the box and the location the column comes out of it. Looks like the F-1 box has a column that comes more out of the bottom of the box. I will take a photo and post in a few hours when I have a second. I guess the measurements I could use are: distance from mounting flange(or inside the unboxed frame) to the absolute outside edge of the box(closest to the motor), the position in relation to the frame that the column starts at the box...inches from outside edge of frame, and how much lower the column may be in comparison to the Model A column(maybe the column comes out of the box below the horizontal plain of the top of the frame?). I know this is hard without pictures, I will post some soon. Thanks again for all the help. I may just use the stock box and move it closer to the firewall, and weld up the old holes...but I do like the F-1.

Adam

 

if i get a chance tonight, i'll snap you some pics....

i have both of tardel/bishop's books....the little book on steering is worth EVERY penny....go buy it right now....

i used an f1 box (f100 is a bit larger) i cut the flange off of the model a box and the flange off of the f1 box.......if you measure just right, you won't have to put new bronze/brass bearings in either pc.....which BTW the sector shaft in the A is the same diameter as in the f1 (not true for the f100)

i don't have my pipes yet, i just ordered some U bends and a header flange from speedway, yesterday. i plan on coming straight out from my rear exhaust port...it should clear the steering column no problem....see the f1 column comes into the steerin box at the bottom of the box, which lowers the column down and mostly out of the way of the rear exhaust port....

i'm not done with mine, so now would be a good time to get some pics for ya...i haven't even welded my A flange to my f1 box...just sitting in there mocked up...

EDIt: the f1 box looks perfect in the frame....as a matter of fact, i think it looks better than the a because of the column coming into the bottom of the box, rather than the top like the A

 

F100 on the left, F1 on the right.

Notice the F100 is slightly larger, the sector shaft
has a larger diameter, and more splines.

 

Thanks a lot, this all so helpful...

 

I think the main advantage of the F100 installation is that no cutting and welding is required, just a bit of grinding and clearancing. They also ground the end of the sector shaft square to take the Model A pitman arm, which is smaller than the F100 one.

 

i hope this helps ,cuz i got grease on my slides mang!

 

this is great stuff. does anyone make a rebuild kit I.E. gaskets etc. for the f-1 or f-100 boxes...

 

Yes Classic auto parts in Oklahoma is where I got mine, but I believe almost all the antique suppliers have them.

 

can you run other types of column on the F1 box? I know it was the late 50's before most steering boxes had a rag joint on them. I'm toying with a Mopar dash with the turn signal switch and all right on it, so I don't need one on the column if I use that, and I'm thinking finding a cheap useable wheel will be easier if the top end of the shaft takes a GM or Mopar (or even later Ford) wheel.

 

i think i must have a big block flathead ,theres no way i can fit an A or f1 steer box into my a frame, must be because iam trying to put it on right hand side. I have to make a bracket on top of rail, has anyone a pic of steer box bracket on top of rail.

 

i don't know if you can tell much from these shots or not....

i slid the box and sector out from the A flange a little so you could see it....

my problem (now that you've got me looking ahead) isn't clearing the column tube and the header, it's the header clearing the frame without havin to angle the header tube upwards....

i didn't have my body on but this may give you some ideas...

also, you can see where i missed the bushings inside the flange and the steering box.....that way i didn't have to replace them...mine were tight fitting....

 

Hey, thanks a lot Flathead Youngin' for those pictures...they give me a good idea as to the spacial relationships between frame, box, and exhaust. I appreciate that a lot. Did you use the Tardell book as well for the conversion. I am getting an F1 box this weekend(freebie!) and will be doing this soon. Any hints and tips from you would be awesome. Just don't have the time to get that Tardell booklet and lent my Bishop book out to someone...

Adam

 

Crackers, I have a RHD '56 F100 box and the sector shaft and housing is actually something like an inch shorter than a LHD one - I guess to clear the starter in it's original application. Don't know if a RHD F1 is also shorter, but it might be worth looking at a '53-'56 one?

Hmm..beginning to sound like an F100 salesman ;-)

 

You are in luck as well if you can go to both the ahooga.com site and the fordbarn site, as both have a ton of archived information on this swap. Ahooga discusses it basically from the standpoint of making a stock A more easily steerable and fordbarn discusses it in both the street rod section of the site and the traditional Model A stock section. The picture archives at Ahooga.com have many pics of the unit, but scrolling through the thumbnails and searching are not much fun if you are in a hurry. If you post at either site, lots of the fellows have gone to this option on steering. Not sure if the drag link requires some altering or not, as I am no expert on it, but the fellows are generally helpful there and can add to anything you find here.
Good luck on her and try to post pics of what you end up doing.
Huey

 

yeah, i have the av8 book and the ford steering book......this conversion is covered well in the av8 book but is covered again in the little booklet plus it has more info on the other steering boxes from ford......well worth the 6 or so bucks.......i understand the time thing....

my steering was as smooth as it gets from stop to stop when i bought it....when i took it apart, it still had some gawling (sp??) on the sector and worm gears....i took some emory cloth to it and gonna slap it back together.....

i haven't arrived at the point of reassembly but it looks like i'm gonna have to order a gasket kit for putting it all back together....i guess you use a gasket to get your clearances......sort of like the banjo gaskets...

 

adam, did you get this done yet? i welded mine up today........there's not much of a way to clamp it, so it wants to draw on you REAL badly and then the sector won't turn in the bronze bushings......i had to ziz (sp??) wheel it back apart twice (that was fun).......finally, i was REAL patient with it and kept tacking it all around and then only welded 1/4" passes and let it cool for about 45min in between time.....took much of the day but I think I nailed it!