No, not the Japanese kind. I mean real tuners, like a high end German car taken to near maximum performance potential like an AMG Mercedes. I love the concept if not most of their starting material. Why don't we do something like that? There are plenty of good looking cars around from the 1950s and '60s that would seem to lend themselves well to the concept. One could even speculate that the Chrysler 300C was nothing more than a factory "tuned" New Yorker. Perhaps if the Mexican Road Race had lasted longer and had a larger following in the United States, something along these lines would have grown from that racing series. One can see that the advertising illustrators were thinking along these lines when they drew the product as lower and in more exciting situations than reality. Take our 1955 Caribbean, for example. Perhaps you see the basis for a custom, here, but I (perhaps because I'm a muscle car geek) see a Packard Tuner waiting to happen. It's already lowered, thanks to the illustrator, but our real-world example would benefit from dropped spindles and lowering blocks. While we're playing with the suspension, heavier duty shocks and springs and thick swaybars will take the handling far beyond what one would expect from a '55 Packard. Of course, Packard never built (to my knowledge, but I'm far from an expert) a quick-ratio steering box, but we can help the factory out by sourcing one elsewhere (doubtless something intended for the Pro Touring crowd). We could cheat a bit and use whitewall radials, but I think it might be fun to limit ourselves as much as possible to 1950s technology. I realize this might seem a bit contradictory, to use a modern aftermarket steering box and bias ply tires, but in my mind our intent is to only subsitute parts that could have been produced by the factory back then, but weren't because they were too busy merging with Studebaker and going out of business. Drum brakes? Let's keep them. Metallic linings existed in the 1950s, or perhaps a bit of kevlar is in order. In any case we've got to do something to slow this monster once we get that 352 in order. Tuner cars don't use radical cams, ordinarily, so I don't feel uneasy about retaining (or adding!) a power brake booster. Speaking of the 352, I think the most important thing we can do to aide our performance is to replace the Ultramatic with something lighter and... shiftier? The T-10 four-speed was only two years away in the Corvette, so I don't think it's out of line to suggest that Packard could have asked Borg-Warner to develop it a bit early. If you're a real stickler, how about a BW T-85 with an overdrive? We'll adjust the gear ratio as necessary, replacing the stock rear with a Ford 9" if we don't have a source for Packard ge****ts. Finally, we've got to play with the engine, every hot rodder's favorite part. Dual exhausts with tubular headers (it would only be a few years before the factories were packaging them in the trunk for dealer installation) and a low-restriction exhaust. Smitty's, perhaps, could have been working with the factory. Factory dual-quad setups were around for the big Packard V8 and that seems a likely choice for our Tuner Packard (TP?). A few calls to the long-established cam companies will surely net someone who can still regrind a camshaft. Being as tuners are more civilized than your average hot rod, something with hydraulic lifters is probably in order. Have I missed anything? Paint and body are, of course, at the buyer's discretion. I would take my lead from Chrysler on the early letter series and offer my TP in a solid color and not the wild tri-tones that the fluffier cars used. Seatbelts were an option in '50s cars and I think the wise man would install them here. I would not even be opposed to a pair of square-back buckets and a factory-looking console. Happy driving! -David Conwill
All good thoughts... Richard Teague did a very good job on these Packards in my opinion. He used the same style scoops on the 1969 Javelins which I always thought was funny. In my opinion the Packard would not be an ideal choice becuase of the lack of material to work with, and as for the factory they had enough to deal with... the ship sinking and all... However, as you mention the Mopar guys had been onto something with all the dealer installed, factory made speed parts for Dodge, Chrylser and Plymouth. The Dodge dealerships of '55/'56 had a HUGE list of high performance parts... You still see stuff like OEM high performace cams in unused Mopar boxes from '56 on ebay every now and then... Plymouth offered thier "grand national" stuff for 1956... All factory. If you are brave... and rich... Mopar is the way to go to create a 1950's Tuner. While Ford offered alot of good performance stuff, the '56 and up design is not very agressive. Hudson would be the coolest and parts are not "Mopar" high. Plus they got a leg-up on everyone... Guess it is settled... we are building a 1950's tuner? Hyfire
i would love to do a "tuner"(high performance factory looking) studebaker avanti sometime in my life (it really doesn't fit with HAMB material) but that is down the list of cars i want to build, but it would make a cool project
The briggs "61" series Coupe is Awesome. Basically a 1950 Cadillac sixty-two series with a good 6" to 12" cut off behind the door. All factory. They raced "61" cars in Nascar too... How great is it to see a Caddy run Nascar! Hyfire
What Briggs Cunningham did with Cadillacs for LeMans was a big inspiration for this as well. I'd love to do a 62 series as a Mexican Road Race car or a Tuner. I simply used the Packard because I had the illustration and it was a little "out there." There are tons of "too big to be cool" fullsize near-luxury cars available for dirt cheap prices still today. An Olds 98 or Pontiac Bonneville is an obvious choice, but how about a Tuned Edsel? A lot of contemporary reviews called them over powered.
Road racing goodies on vintage-styled cars? I think I just got wood. Look to the NASCAR rides of the day for some inspiration, and to the road racer/rally car rides for more. There is no doubt the musclecar crowd has taken to a road race flavor after 40 years of nothing but drag racing to inspire their modifications. It's working, as "Pro Touring" or "G-Machines" continue to raise the bar in quality, style, and performance for these guys. Could something similar work for traditional rods and customs? Sure, but it'll have to be done with taste and tons of respect for the era, rather than a modern interpretation (which is what the musclecars are). I'm dying to see where this thread goes. There's already a well-established place to run such cars (the Silver State Cl***ic Challenge is perfect) and they also run the modern version of the Panamerica Carerra race. This could be really big. There are some vintage bodies running these races now, but most are sporting NASCAR-flavored ch***is under their skin. Could anyone build such a car with respect to the originals? I'm anxious to see. ~Scotch~
The key would be in the suspension and brakes. Look at BMW's E36 M3 (96 - 00) for inspriation. They couldn't get the Euro-spec M engine emissions certified, so they played with the standard engine instead. Bumping up the compression, boring and stroking a little (2.8 to 3.2 Liters), and a slightly bigger cam woke up the engine. But on paper the M3 wasn't much quicker than the regular 3. But lowering the car, beefier springs and swaybars, much bigger brakes and wheels/tires, completely changed the way the car felt and handled. Don't forget the little things like more supportive seats, shorter throw shifter, and quick ratio steering as you mentioned. BMW also built a lightweight version of the M3, with no sound insulation, AC, radio, or back seat. They kept things like power windows and door locks, because they were actually lighter than the manual versions. It would be fun to raid the 50's parts bins, and build a tuner Edsel, Mercury, Pontiac, or Plymouth. If you stuck to the midrange cars, you could raid the high end cars for beefier suspension and brakes, and raid the low end cars for lighter components. GM certainly knew a thing or two about fiberglas by the middle of the decade, so fiberglas hoods and decklids aren't out of the question. Or it's conceivable that they could throw some aluminum into the stamping dies for lighter weight, a la the lightweight drag cars of the early 60's. Although that would take more work on our part. Hmmm... This is getting interesting.
I always kinda liked them. I never claimed not to be weird, though. I love this thread, I hope it doesn't die. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's been thinking this way.
I have also always liked the European "tuner" approach because it's aimed at producing a balanced car. If you pump up the engine you need to pump up the brakes and suspension to match. This is a cool idea and especially so since vintage cars don't mix well in modern traffic. If you make these cars work well in traffic without going to Wilwood disk brakes, rack & pinion steering, and a bunch of billet machined suspension parts it's doubly cool.
There is some cool precedent...consider the "Black Widow" '57 Chevies. Built on the cheapo 150-series cars, the Black Widow has many special features including 6-lug wheels, 20-gallon fuel tank, 8 shock absorbers, special 283 Fuel Injected engine, roll-bar, 8,000 rpm AC tachometer, plus many suspension and body modifications. Things like louvered inserts to ventilate air from the engine compartment, etc. They were "tuner" cars designed to handle (as much as 1957 NASCAR racing required handling) and only 22 were made. They were damn cool though... ~Scotch~
I like your thinking, and I'm liking the "Pro Touring" trend. My own shoebox was built with nearly as much attention to handling and stopping as to style and straight-line speed, but I didn't attempt to do it with period parts so it has disc brakes and radials and other traditionalist no-nos. In the great years of the Trans-Am series (ca 1969), East coast racer Bob Tullius built and ran a '64 GTO against the then-current crop of Mustangs and Camaros and stuff. It was hardly a vintage car, but I liked the unorthodoxy of his model choice and the underdog nature of his effort. My version of your Packard fantasy would use a '51-'52 2-door sedan. Packards did run in the Mexican road race with moderate success, and a Frenchman named Jean Trevoux ran an aluminum-bodied, scaled down Packard 2-door hot rod (which, regrettably, vanished soon thereafter).
Ottatyme, I think that you should cook up some renderings, my artistic skills are limited to side views with little lines to items with notes like "large diameter metallic drum brakes." I could see another R&C dream car coming from that effort. 50Fraud and Jaybee, it sounds like we're all on the same page. I'm not adverse to a few well hidden modern parts as long as they don't spoil the overall feel, but if I were a high roller, I'd probably be a stickler on my own ride. My Camaro is a balanced car or as near as I can make it and it's fairly well period correct, but I've cheated here and there. -Dave
In a small way, I built my '54 Chevy truck this way. It's lowered (of course) via 4" dropped axle and reversed eye springs in front and bacl with lowering blocks in the rear. Added a five speed ******, front and rear sway bars and four-wheel disc brakes. It will be getting a new steering box and a newer, hotter six this year. It's built to drive... a lot. r
I'd love to build my 53 to handle like my 240 did. Acceleration and a 235 don't go together easily, though. As long as the mods are done tastefully and the wheels aren't 26s, I like it.
I'm game to throw a few lines down over a couple evenings, if you're interested ... go with the Packard, or is there another ride everyone might like to see? ...and thinking out loud, what if we could do a 18" wheel that looks like a steelie, but has the weight advantages of an aluminum wheel, and could hide some big brakes... maybe some serious coil-overs (hell, if it sits low enough, who'd ever see the modern stuff?) No painted bumpers, billet trim or tinted windows, just a low, mean looking, thinly-disguised racer for the street... Hide all of the additional frame bracing and whatnot, build some serious support into the stock seat frames, all period-correct looking under the hood... going too far to suggest the world's first 5 on the tree?
I think Jack Clifford was onto something with the Hudson's before their merger with Nash. The Nascar and later NHRA cars were street pigs he made into compe***ive Tuners' with imagination. -- A 308 CID 6 Cylinder Flathead basically stock except for his idea of what a performance cam should do held the cl*** record for ten years and beat out the 327 Chevy powered factory racer in '64 as related on the Clifford Performance site.
Maybe we should run a poll. In any case, I think it should be something envelope bodied, but before the true muscle car era starts. Also, something from one of the middle- or low-luxury priced manufacturers. So I'm thinking 1949 to 1960 Mercury, Edsel, Dodge, DeSoto, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Studebaker, Nash or Hudson. That's just off the top of my head, of course. I could also see many Lincolns, Chryslers, Imperials, Packards and Cadillacs done this way. Any way you slice it, it's a "dare to be different" proposition for sure. Up to this point, I think you've described the so-called "Leno treatment" like on his '55 Buick, Olds Toronado and that other fellow's '55 Chrysler 300. Also very cool cars and sort of a less pure take on what we're doing here. I don't think I'd object to that. In many ways it's easier to use the modern parts and hide them. We've just got to be careful not to go too far and end up with a Pro Tourer with whitewalls. Period correct under the hood would defnitely set us apart from the Leno treatment. Those cars immediately have their vibe ruined when you open the hood as they seem more concerned with showing off their new crate motors than keeping the vintage feel. I don't think that this would be the world's first 5-on-the-tree, actually. I recall someone (Fat Hack?) mentioning a RHD Toyota truck with a 5-speed column shift at a Big Three testing facility. I just wonder how they did it, as most modern manual transmissions are topshift with internal rail shifters, not side shift. I really hope this goes somewhere!
I read an excellent article recently about some famous old-time moonshiners in the Carolinas, and these guys built "tuners" as you're describing - stock-looking, purpose-built, high-performance cars built for speed and handling. They had to out-run the Feds while carrying heavy loads. One guy in the article still has his fleet of hopped-up '40 v8 Fords. I'm surprised I haven't seen a thread on moonshiner cars... or on Cuban American jalopies, for that matter.
That's got my brain hurting now! I agree, the moonshiner idea would be a nice slant on this idea, too. I also agree that Leno-izing the car would be a crime... we'll hide the NECESSARY modern evils, and rely on home-brewing (pardon the pun) some slick alternative parts to make it handle and go places fast. I'm liking the idea of maybe a '52-'54 Ford? Decent lines, not as ubiquitous as the '55-'57... maybe not quite as hard to find as a solid Mopar fro the same era, and speed parts would be somewhat lighter on a budget as well. And, on a side note, I wasn't aware of the 5-speed column shift having been done already! That's awesome! I'll have to see what I can find on that. I'm not a big automatic fan, but the right push-****on set-up would be period-cool, too....
A '52-'54 Ford with all the above-discussed upgrades kinda sounds like a fictional police package. As far as I know the factual Ford Interceptor in '54 consisted of the 256ci Y-block from the Mercury instead and not much else. How about a '52 or '53 Mercury Tuner done with a Lincoln Y-block and all the "Road Race Lincoln" upgrades we can squeeze underneath her? Along with the obligatory frame modifications, etc. While I'm thinking about it, ever since I read about a GM engineer (Ed Cole?) driving around with a '53 Chevrolet containing the SBC test engine and people mistaking it for a baby Cadillac engine, I've always wanted to do a stovebolt blue SBC with Vortec heads, Ram's Horns, dual 2bbls wearing oilbath aircleaners and those new cast-aluminum "Oldsmobile" valve covers lettered "Blue Flame Eight." Wouldn't that look swell in a pre-'55 Chevrolet?
They were built by a Frenchman and based on Packards. Someone mentioned them earlier in the post and I just now figured out what you were talking about. -Dave
Maybe a '54 Henry J built into a little sports coupe, with the big Kaiser supercharged inline 6, 3 speed with overdrive and floorshift, bucket seats, a tighter suspension with sway bars, Alfin or Buick finned drums, quicker steering and moderately larger wheels and tires. Alternatively, the bigger OHC 6 used in the '60s Kaiser Jeep trucks could be fitted. This kind of moves the concept from "tuner" to "factory prototype" though. Something similar could be done to a Willys Aero sedan about as easily.
Didn't the Metropolitan use the same kind of Austin engine that evolved into the BMC A engines? Those were tuned plenty, even at pretty extreme levels. As for the rest of the car, I can see one done up as an Argentinean or Brazilian road racer...only slightly lowered, four speed crashbox, old-school rollbar, exhaust run lakes pipes style along the rocker, open wheels with wider rubber, r&p, same brake setup as the J. I'd rather see this one black upper/white lower twotone, rather than the aqua/white we see so much of.
Soon as I read the first post I thought of the shine haulers... They were pulling parts from convertibles and Police models, souping up the engines and strengthening the driveline YEARS before the import tuners were even thought about! Wrapped in a plain wrapper for stealth as well. Make mine a mid to late 50's Merc...triple black with small caps.
If you run a search, there have been several threads about moonshine haulers (Trip Cars) and there are few guys here who actually hauled a load or two of white liquor back in the day. These and old circle trackers are my favorite subjects... Jan
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