Back to the Old School - Leading

Okay, who here on the board does "lead" work.

This weekend, I did a quick crash course with my buddy Derek Mitchell to give him the experience in the "Long Lost" art of body filling with lead.

I do it on occasion either on my own projects or others. Its still an interesting process and fun to do.

I wanted to see what others used for your basic spreading up to your finish work, especially in those hard to reach areas.

Some things I use are:
~ Various files: flat and 1/2 rounded
~ wire wheels of different shapes
~ Disk sander/DA
~ Sand Paper
~ Sand paper drums/cylinders

 

quick question. Anytime I have thaught of trying my hand at this, I have always concidered the cost of buying a propane tank/torch or oxy/acetalene torch setup too expensive to make it worthwhile. It looks like your using a small handheld propane torch. I concidered this, but figured the small can wouldnt last long enough to make it practical. How much time do you usualy get out of a can?

 

I would like to learn how to lead. Interested in posting a DIY TECH post on how to do it?

Is this process ultimately cleaner in both the clean up and ultimate outcome of the job than using a filler such as Rage Gold or something like that? Seams like things would be easier to shape and ultimately the clean-up process would be easier, but I've never done it. "Fill" us in! Sorry, bad pun!

 

A can usually lasts for a good day. Those cans you see there I have had for a few years. I bought (4) then and just used up my 3rd one.

The small setups work great in my opinion...if you get the gas at Wal Mart or K-mart...the cost per can is like $2.00 or less. Cheap. I have used both Map Gas (yellow can) and Propane (blue can)

 

The issue with lead is it takes alot longer to do than "plastic" fillers. For me, it takes 2-4 times longer to complete than plastic fillers.

As for it being easier, its not; but its not difficult either. the biggest problem is heat control. There is a happy medium when doing it. Too cool and you wont be able to spread the lead around. Too Hot and it drips off like water. Staying in between is the part through experience you figure out and roll with it.

Cleaner? I would say not. You use a few products when doing this: Tinning butter, lead, wax...and the final sanding/shaping part gets dirty like hell. Ever wonder why in the old custom books the guys at the shop are black and dirty as hell after working on a car doing lead? when you shape and sand, the lead gets fine and blackens everything. Kind of like "dry" grease shards everywhere.

One issue with leading are the acids. If you neutralize it after the tinning process, it will later come back to haunt you in the future under your nice paint job.

Typically the process goes this way:
1. Clean your metal surface; grind, wipe or strip it
2. Get out the torch and heat the surface and lay down your tinning butter
3. Neutralize and cleanup the surface again. (I use baking soda and water) You get a nice burnt honey glaze on the surface that needs to be wiped off.
4. Break out the lead sticks and start heating and spreading
5. Use Wax and paddles to move the lead around the surface your filing
6. Sand, file or wire wheel your body work
7. Final clean-up of area...upon which you have burnt honey glaze, dropped wax, lead droppings and such all over the floor or bench your working on.

 

Is it just the acids that have paint adhesion issues or the lead itself? I have about 3 pounds and the paddle as well as a bunch of files. I have a buddy whose dad is an old hot rodder that's supposedly gonna give me like 30 pounds he has left - he now GLADLY uses plastic filler...

 

where do you get your lead sticks from? i called the local paint supply places and they said either no or they're not sure. last time i got some was from eastwood and i bought the basic kit also. it would be nice to just and pick some up vs. shipping them.

 

Yeah, that sounds just as messy as using plastic fillers.... just a different type of messy.

 

What happens is, from what I learned, if you dont clean up the tinning process and you lay lead over the top of it, the acids get trapped underneath and later work thier way up through the lead, causing bubbling in the paint.

Almost like when you use polyester primer over your bare metal, then run a few months in the rain, heat and moisture. Well, that polyester primer acts like a sponge and traps moisture underneath that eventually will rust and bubble up from the surface...creating damage to your pretty shiney paint.

 

I have gotten mine from my local welding shop or you can buy them from Eastwood. (70/30)

 

Thanks for posting this. I was taught to lead years ago, but havent done any until just the last few months.
I was taught differently than your process (I'm sure time and memory loss has had an effect!) So I have some questions.

The guy that taught me cleaned the surface (ground with 40 grit)
then heated the area, applied tinning liquid, then reheated and applied a small amount of lead, wipeing it across the surface with a rag. This is what he called tinning. Then he added more heat and lead to fill, smoothing it with a wooden paddle that had been sitting on a cloth soaked in ATF. After he finished, then he neutralized with baking soda with water.

So my questions, does the tinning butter replace the tinning liquid, AND the thin layer of lead?
In step 3 what do you use to clean off the "honey glaze"

I bought lead at the local auto paint store (KC auto in Spokane) it was $5.50 ea for 1/2 lb sticks.

 

See my notes above in Red.

 

maybe I can do a HAMB tech on this subject. Would anyone be interested?

Im not a full "Pro" like Winfield, but I know enough and the correct way to be dangerous

 

\

Yes ,m very much so.. I just got the full kti from Eastwood and am anxious to start when we get settled in the new shop in a few more weeks..

G

 

was being taught how to do leading by my older cousin who had his own body shop.I think that a tec post on this is a good idea.Lead bars can be purchased at plumbing supply houses in bars or cakes (ingots) in various ratioes 50/50 70/30 etc.along with tinning compounds and fluxes.It was used to join cast iron drain pipe by filling the joints between sections.

 

I have allways wanted to do this...I dont like bondo...maybe because of all the misuses i have seen. It just seems more stable and stronger to me but dont know if thats true or not.

 

Please do..... I need to learn more!



.

 

I think we all are!!!

please do do a tech on it!

Troy.

 

Hey,

OK, some thoughts on doing lead work that I've picked up over the years....
DO NOT GRIND LEAD TO SHAPE OR SAND! over the last thirty-plus years
that I've been doing body work, Iv'e never met anyone who has had lead-
poisoning, but I'm sure they are out there. The body takes in lead from the
lungs and skin to the blood stream, and from there it makes the rounds. It
gets stored in the bones, making them brittle, the liver, brain, ya name it!
Oh, the body dosen't disapate lead, but continues to store it. Keep little
kids and old fuckers, that's anybody older than me, out of the shop when
your workin with lead. Lead is especially tough on their systems. Don't smoke
or eat wile workin lead, and don't wear your workin duds into the house
after ya been workin, filin, or shapin lead. The last is very important if ya
have babies/toddlers about the pad. OK, enought of the chicken little number.

I've never heard of washin or neutralizin the tinned surface prior to heat-
in and meltin the lead onto the surface, it would seem the water would be
at odds with the flux and raw steel? I haven't used tinning butter, but I
have used a product called" Dutchman"- kinda a dry gray sand-like product
with bits of flux and lead bits mixed in. This product was worked into the
heated surface, with coarse steel wool, gloves and goggles are a
no-brainer! A good splash of the flux/butter in your eye, and it's off to the
ER ward. 30/70 alloy is best for automotive work. The plumber's 50/50 may
work for flat work, but for vertical, uh, no. Try and work the panel from the
top down, as heat rises in the panel, and may bite ya in the ass later, if it's
a large area that you're workin. Try to do as much shaping and forming with
the paddle, with the lead in semi-molten as possible. Don't get into the
bad habit of rough shapin with a vixen file, and never a grinder! Try for a
little more lead on the surface than ya think you'll need, as reheating and
refluxing , to add more material, is usually where the trouble starts. Watch
that as you're paddelin the lead that you don't cover spots of pooled flux.
They will work their way to the surface later, and cause ya boxcars full of
greif. Once the lead has cooled, file and sand with a block, never a grinder
or d.a., and be carefull , lead is softer than plastic filler.

Swankey Devils C.C.

 

I'm glad you covered the safety aspects. I's the main reason I haven't messed with it for so many years. I figure being an old fucker, by the time it kills me, something else will have beat it to it.
I'd advise you guys with young kids, "not to try this at home"

 

It wasnt that hard, just need more practice, like anything else, to be good at it.

Heat control is the major issue, to much and your work will be destroyed, and you have to start over.

 

Hey,

If you guys switch over to the oxy/acc. welding unit, and away from that
propane/mapp gas unit, I think alot of your heat control problems will become
a thing of the past. Shoot for a soft oxygen-rich flame, not a neutral or car-
burizing flame.

Swankey Devils C.C.

 

Well, I guess I broke all of the rules of safety. I smoked, walked and carried that stuff with me all over.

I should have known, but merely forgot in the spectrum of excitement.

I have an Oxy/Acc unit, but not the right tip for the work. I have had quite a bit of sucess using the propane unit, you just have to be patient. Once you got it down..its down hill from there.

On another note, Ill put together a HAMB tech on Leading. Give me some time. If someone beats me to it..that's cool too.

 

Chopped50Ford,

Hows about a tech article? I have always been intrested in leading (like others) but haven't tried it because I wasn't sure about the process. Might seem like a dumb question but can you run the lead without painting it and not have the problems that plastic filler will give you? I don't have a garage and often times my project is left out in the rain. Thanks for your posts by the way!!!

aloha,
rustfarmer

 

There's a special tip you can get from Eastwood, that slips pver our regular tip, when using Oxy/Acetylene. You dont' use the Oxygen, just Acetylene, mixed with air. Oxygen makes the flame way too hot!
Leadwork is not that difficult, controling the heat is the hardest part. Cleanu after leading is critical for paint adhesion. Cool thing is, you can even pick up low spots after leading, not like plastic work!
I've been keeping up with doing lead work for all these years. not a lot, but when it's the better choice. Thing is....if you think plastic work doesn't last, it's not the Bondo that is the problem, it's the prep work/metal work underneath that is. Well, if you don't do your metal work, welding, prep work right under the lead, it will also come back on you!
Lead is much more expensive, more difficult to work with, and more dangerous than plastic work. Not the best choice in a lot of cases, but the only one in others.
File lead, don't sand it!

 

See above in Red

 

Ill work on that HAMB Tech for leading. give me time

 

Your our hero, Norm.

 

Chopped50Ford,
Thanks!!! Can't wait to see your tech!!!
aloha,
rustfarmer

 

Got the lead, got the paddles, got the torch, got the desire.

Just need some help steppin' off into the pool.

Thanks for the tech!!